Foul after the last buzzer

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

The ball is dead when the try is certain to be unsuccessful. That has nothing to do with whether there was a personal foul on or by an airborne shooter.

So the combination of the horn, followed by the certainty of the try being unsuccessful, causes the ball to become dead, so any contact on the airborne shooter, who has not yet landed, after this "combination" will be ignored unless intentional or flagrant?

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

The call is a personal foul on the airborne shooter. The illegal contact does not have to be intentional or flagrant. Whether the ball is dead or not is irrelevant also. The illegal contact just has to occur before the airborne shooter lands (one foot).

Even if the horn sounded and the try was certain to be unsuccessful before the contact, said contact being before the landing?

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Rules 4-42-4, 6-7-6 & 6-7-7 + EXCEPTIONS a & c, 4-19-1 + NOTE. Per my usual modus operandi, why didn't you look the damn rules up yourself?

I did. I was confused by the complicating factors of the live ball/dead ball/shot/horn/unsuccessful try issue and the airborne shooter/landing issue. I am still confused.

[BillyMac]

6-7: The ball becomes dead, or remains dead, when:
ART. 6 Time expires for a quarter or extra period (see exception a below).
ART. 7 A foul occurs (see exceptions a, b and c below).
EXCEPTION: The ball does not become dead until the try or tap ends, or until the airborne shooter returns to the floor, when:
a. Article 5, 6, or 7 occurs while a try or tap for a field goal is in flight.
c. Article 7 occurs by any opponent of a player who has started a try or tap for goal (is in the act of shooting) before the foul occurred, provided time did not expire before the ball was in flight.

I think that this citation has everything that I need; time expires, foul occurs, try in flight, airborne shooter, returns to floor. I just need to think my way around the several "or's" to fully understand it. Help would be appreciated.

Here's the situation again, with my notes in parentheses: Shooter becomes airborne, ball is released on a try, horn sounds after release (horn doesn't end period because ball is still in flight), ball is blocked by defender into the bleachers, making it definite it will not go in (one definition of the end of a try, since ball is not in flight anymore, maybe the period ends here), airborne shooter is then fouled, not intentional or flagrant, by a secondary defender before landing (the before landing makes this a player in the act of shooting, so maybe the period doesn't end until the player lands).

There must be a simple answer to this just staring me in the face? I must be over-complicating this. Does the horn and certainty of an unsuccessful try end the period, or does the period not end until the airborne shooter lands?

When does the damn period end? Someone please put me out of my misery. I wish I had never brought this up and had just answered christianH's question.

[christianH]

Hi Billymac,

If you were under FIBA rules I think the answer would be :

On Referees Duties and Powers:

Art 46.13 - ( in bold! )Have the power to make decisions on any point not specifically covered by these rules.

But maybe I am being just lazy.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by christianH

Have the power to make decisions on any point not specifically covered by these rules.

Thanks. Nice try. But this situation is definitely covered by the rules. I'm just having trouble navigating my way through them.

[jdw3018]

The EXCEPTION above answers it, Billy. The ball does not become dead until the airborne shooter returns to the floor.

So, to answer the OP, the official could call a foul after the horn but while the ball was in the air and/or until the airborne shooter returns to the ground. But, the official will have to determine the contact was actually a foul. I have no idea if a foul should have been called in your scenario.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

The ball does not become dead until the airborne shooter returns to the floor.

Sounds good, I would love to agree with you, but: The ball does not become dead until the airborne shooter returns to the floor, when: Article 5, 6, or 7 occurs while a try or tap for a field goal is in flight.

4-41: The try ends when it is certain the throw is unsuccessful.

The try ended, we've got a non try heading out of bounds, before the contact, and before the airborne shooter lands, so the exception can't be used here? I think? This is giving me a headache.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

So the combination of the horn, followed by the certainty of the try being unsuccessful, causes the ball to become dead, so any contact on the airborne shooter, who has not yet landed, after this "combination" will be ignored unless intentional or flagrant?

Not even close. You can have a "normal" (not "common") PF on an airborne shooter after the ball becomes dead. I gave you the reference before.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

You can have a "normal" (not "common") PF on an airborne shooter after the ball becomes dead.

Even when the horn has sounded to end the period and the try is no longer in flight? Please note that this is a polite question, not a sarcastic statement.

Also, in my opinion, I believe that, in the absence of an intentional or flagrant act, a foul can be called up until the airborne shooter gets at least one foot on the floor, but that's an opinion based on common sense, because ...

I'm still confused by this wording: The ball does not become dead until the airborne shooter returns to the floor, when: Article 5, 6, or 7 occurs while a try or tap for a field goal is in flight. I'm confused because the try ended when it was certain that the try was unsuccessful, ergo, no try, no exception.

(Ergo? Where did that come from? I've been reading too many of mbyron's posts.)

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Even when the horn has sounded to end the period and the try is no longer in flight?

Yes.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Yes.

Thanks, that's the way I would call it, but can you please explain my "Ergo" (no try, no exception).

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Not even close. You can have a "normal" (not "common") PF on an airborne shooter after the ball becomes dead. I gave you the reference before.

Billy, look at rule 4-19-1 and the note. It says "a personal foul also includes contact by or ON an airborne shooter when the ball is DEAD". The NOTE says that " Contact AFTER the ball has become DEAD is ignored UNLESS it is ruled intentional or flagrant OR is committed by or ON an airborne shooter."

Clear out the excess verbiage and that reads "Contact after the ball has become dead is ignored unless it is committed on an airborne shooter".

That's what both Bob and I have been trying to explain to you.

Ball dead---> contact on airborne shooter = a normal personal foul(of the shooting variety).

The period doesn't end until the play is over. The play is over when the airborne player lands. The period now ends after the fouled player shoots his FT's because the foul on the airborne player was considered part of the previous period.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Rule 4-19-1 and the note. It says "a personal foul also includes contact by or ON an airborne shooter when the ball is DEAD". The NOTE says that "Contact AFTER the ball has become DEAD is ignored UNLESS it is ruled intentional or flagrant OR is committed by or ON an airborne shooter." The period doesn't end until the play is over. The play is over when the airborne player lands. The period now ends after the fouled player shoots his FT's.

Bingo. Thanks. And thanks for your patience. When bob jenkins, and Jurassic Referee, speak, everybody listens. (Apologies to E.F Hutton)
(Jurassic Referee: I thought you were dead?)

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

(Jurassic Referee: I thought you were dead?)

I am. I'm too dumb to lay down though.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I am. I'm too dumb to lay down though.

Oh, I get it:

IMDb Video: The Mummy (1932)

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I am. I'm too dumb to lay down though.

I'm dumber for having read this thread!.