T Up a Fan?!?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Smitty

OK I give up.

Good because Dad's butt belongs in the stands. That is the area to which his admission ticket entitles him, not the playing court.

For the sake of argument, let's say that a child suffers a life-threatening injury on the court and the game is stopped. What skills does the average parent have which is going to help that child? Unless the parent is an EMT (fireman/police/first response trained) or medical doctor what good is it going to do to have the person down there? Is it going to please you that your child was able to die in your arms?

What happens when your child is transported to the hospital for surgery? Does the surgeon permit mom and dad into the operating room? No, you sit in the hallway and wait while the appropriate people handle the situation. This is no different, but because there isn't a wall between the stands and the court people somehow feel entitled to come out there. People really need to get over their sense of self-importance and remain where they belong.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

People really need to get over their sense of self-importance .....

Am I the only one who sees this statement as ironic?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Am I the only one who sees this statement as ironic?

Yes, you are.

It is so like you to try to turn such a statement around and point it at an official who insists that people don't go where they shouldn't. You simply don't grasp the argument.

You probably have a picture of an official running over trying to stop the people from coming out of the stands. That is not realistic.

What is realistic is for the official to find a far away location until the situation finishes and then to assess whatever penalties are necessary for the conduct. That is a big difference from being personally involved, and that is what makes the people who run over "self-important" and the official not, hence there is nothing ironic about the original statement. Do you need a lesson in the usage of the word? mbyron can certainly fill you in.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Yes, you are.

It is so like you to try to turn such a statement around and point it at an official who insists that people don't go where they shouldn't. You simply don't grasp the argument.

You probably have a picture of an official running over trying to stop the people from coming out of the stands. That is not realistic.

What is realistic is for the official to find a far away location until the situation finishes and then to assess whatever penalties are necessary for the conduct. That is a big difference from being personally involved, and that is what makes the people who run over "self-important" and the official not.

So you stand back quietly and watch when Mom comes out to help her son up. When it turns out to be an ankle sprain, the son sits on the bench with an ice pack, but Mom has to leave? And the other team gets free throws??

Thanks, Mom.

[gslefeb]

There are two questions in this arguement.

One: Do you think Parents should come onto the court to see their injured Child?

Two: If Parent does come onto the court without being beckoned, would you give them a T?


I would rather the Parent's STAY in the stands, until waived onto the court by either me or the Coach.

I would not give a T to a parent in any case.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by gslefeb

There are two questions in this arguement.

One: Do you think Parents should come onto the court to see their injured Child?

Two: If Parent does come onto the court without being beckoned, would you give them a T?

That is a nice way to frame this debate.

Originally Posted by gslefeb

I would rather the Parent's STAY in the stands, until waived onto the court by either me or the Coach. [or game management]

Agree.

Originally Posted by gslefeb

I would not give a T to a parent in any case.

Disagree.

[chseagle]

A parent can be involved throughout the whole process, however when medical personnel are directly involved, the parents are to be as active bystanders (answering medical history questions), not being in the middle of everything getting in the way.

If no medical personnel are available, the parent can become more directly involved.

I'm surprised it's not a regulation for all high school athletic events that EMS must be present. Apparently the NCAA has this regulation, as is what I heard after the unfortunate incident with Derrick Roland.

Unfortunately not all schools have the luxury of having Athletic Trainers available to them at all times.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by chseagle

A parent can be involved throughout the whole process, however when medical personnel are directly involved, the parents are to be as active bystanders (answering medical history questions), not being in the middle of everything getting in the way.

If no medical personnel are available, the parent can become more directly involved.

I'm surprised it's not a regulation for all high school athletic events that EMS must be present. Apparently the NCAA has this regulation, as is what I heard after the unfortunate incident with Derrick Roland.

Unfortunately not all schools have the luxury of having Athletic Trainers available to them at all times.

chseagle, sorry partner but you have no say in what I do if my child is injured in a game. If I choose to remain by his/her side during the entire time medical personnel are atending, that is what I will do. The best thing you can do is sit behind the scorer's table and say a prayer.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

chseagle, sorry partner but you have no say in what I do if my child is injured in a game. If I choose to remain by his/her side during the entire time medical personnel are atending, that is what I will do. The best thing you can do is sit behind the scorer's table and say a prayer.

That's fine. Be there if you choose. Just accept the consequences of your actions like any other in life.

I must ask if you going to insist upon remaining by your child's side in the operating room too, and during the transport? If not, are you being consistent in your stance? I guess that I don't see why do you believe that you must stand right there and hover over the medical personnel on the basketball court, but not in the trauma ward at the local hospital?
Would you tell the doctors at the hospital that they cannot treat your child without you physically present in the room? I think that you are failing to see the big picture. For some reason you, like many others, are fixated on the emergency situation happening on a basketball court and somehow feel compelled to be right next to the scene. Got news for you, if your kid is injured in a car wreck and taken to the hospital via ambulance from the scene, you may not see your child until after the surgeon is finished. The most that you might get is a doctor/hospital administrator coming out into the hallway to fill you in on the situation and ask you to sign a treatment permission form. You actually getting to go back and see your kid is unlikely, if the situation is unstable.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I must ask if you going to insist upon remaining by your child's side in the operating room too, and during the transport? If not, are you being consistent in your stance? I guess that I don't see why do you believe that you must stand right there and hover over the medical personnel on the basketball court, but not in the trauma ward at the local hospital?
Would you tell the doctors at the hospital that they cannot treat your child without you physically present in the room? I think that you are failing to see the big picture. For some reason you, like many others, are fixated on the emergency situation happening on a basketball court and somehow feel compelled to be right next to the scene. Got news for you, if your kid is injured in a car wreck and taken to the hospital via ambulance from the scene, you may not see your child until after the surgeon is finished. The most that you might get is a doctor/hospital administrator coming out into the hallway to fill you in on the situation and ask you to sign a treatment permission form. You actually getting to go back and see your kid is unlikely, if the situation is unstable.

And you think all this is related to whether or not you called a T?

[Nevadaref]

Sterility? That's your rationalization? Get real. The clothes that the injured individual was wearing when the brought him in aren't sterile. This isn't a planned surgery either. This is a trauma ward. The doors swing wide open and people come and go. So you are off the mark here.

Got further news for you. In the vast majority of emergency cases the parent wouldn't even be able to watch the surgery through the window. Yep, that's right, you wouldn't be able to observe every little thing that those doctors are doing to your little one like you somehow believe that you are entitled to do on the basketball court.

You need to spend some time trying to figure out why you feel that way and why you think that it is correct. You come off like a fanboy who has never read a rules book talking about basketball plays. Neither you nor BktBallRef seem to be familiar with the inner workings of a hospital trauma ward in the slightest.

[TimTaylor]

Originally Posted by chseagle

A parent can be involved throughout the whole process, however when medical personnel are directly involved, the parents are to be as active bystanders (answering medical history questions), not being in the middle of everything getting in the way.

If no medical personnel are available, the parent can become more directly involved.

Sorry, but your statement has no basis in fact from a legal standpoint. You clearly have no concept of the legal and ethical principles of informed consent regarding medical diagnosis and treatment and who can legally make related decisions. Except in extreme life threatening circumstances, medical personnel may not treat without consent.Those "signed permissions" some want to place so much stock in are only valid if the parent/guardian are not physically present to make the decisions in person.

Oh, and in response to the question you asked Smitty, I do have a law enforcement background with extensive training in security and crowd control - news flash....a parent attempting to go to the side of an apparently significantly injured child does not pose a threat from either standpoint. Preventing them from exercising their legal rights could, however, be a significant liability issue....and likely a criminal one as well.

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by TimTaylor

Sorry, but your statement has no basis in fact from a legal standpoint. You clearly have no concept of the legal and ethical principles of informed consent regarding medical diagnosis and treatment and who can legally make related decisions. Except in extreme life threatening circumstances, medical personnel may not treat without consent.Those "signed permissions" some want to place so much stock in are only valid if the parent/guardian are not physically present to make the decisions in person.

Oh, and in response to the question you asked Smitty, I do have a law enforcement background with extensive training in security and crowd control - news flash....a parent attempting to go to the side of an apparently significantly injured child does not pose a threat from either standpoint. Preventing them from exercising their legal rights could, however, be a significant liability issue....and likely a criminal one as well.

It would all depend on the jurisdictional rules/regualtions. It would also depend on the training that the crowd control/security personnel have as to what the charges can be. If the crowd control is licensed, more liability can be brought against them depending on their actions. However in most circumstances, for school sporting events the crowd control is normally school staff that are not licensed as crowd control/secuirty, or volunteers that may or may not have any training or be licensed.

In all situations it's always think about the situation as it's happening & what should & should not be done. Not always will a parent be a bother to medical personnel. Nowhere did I say completely ban them from giving input, this can still be done by not being directly involved.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by chseagle

Nowhere did I say completely ban them from giving input, this can still be done by not being directly involved.

Here is the quote I object to:

Originally Posted by chseagle

If I was working crowd control in this situation, I would physically put myself between the parent & the student-athlete so that they could not become one until after removed from the court. One of the primary rules in crowd control is to de-escalate the situation before it gets blown out of proportion. By allowing the parent onto the court, you have just allowed a match to be lit in a potentially explosive situation.

[bbcoach7]

Originally Posted by chseagle

If the crowd control is licensed, more liability can be brought against them depending on their actions. However in most circumstances, for school sporting events the crowd control is normally school staff that are not licensed as crowd control/secuirty, or volunteers that may or may not have any training or be licensed.

There is no such thing as a licensed crowd control. Not even a police officer is a "licensed" person. There is a very significant legal difference between someone who holds a "license," and someone who holds a "certification." No State, organizing body, or anything else you want to call it or can come up with offers a licence for crowd control. There's just no such thing, got it?

Sometimes less is more, and you're proof of that. The more you say, the more evident it is that you don't have any idea of what you're talking about. One of the biggest liabilities in any situation is somebody who has training, but very little experience. Training is necessary, but experience is far more valuable than training. Training without a lot of experience only qualifies someone for "training wheels." Training without a lot of experience qualifies a person to follow the direction of someone who does have experience.

Stay behind the table. Don't get up till the game is over unless it's to get your free hot dog. Don't interact with coaches, players, or fans. Let the teams or the referee's take care of untucked jerseys, resist the urge to say something. In fact, as if your life depended on it, resist all impulces to do or say anything more involved with the game than your job. If barely anybody in the building has noticed your presence, you've probably done your job well.