T Up a Fan?!?

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by bbcoach7

We are talking about legal minors here, correct? The sole purpose of the waiver is two fold, first (but sometimes this is ommited) to release from financial liability the School and all named in the form. Second, to give permission for medical treatment as necessary to be rendered to a minor in the absence of the parent in a case where the parent is not present to give such permission in person. In most States (if not all), medical treatment cannot legally be rendered to a minor unless the injury is clearly life threatning. Essentially without direct parent permission, or the legal signed consent form, they have to be unconscious, or bleeding out. Hence the Medical Waiver is necessary to administer treatment. In no way is a consent form intended nor shall ever be interpreted to hold more weight than the actual parent. Cheagle- if the HS team Doctor is the top neuro surgeon in the country and the kid is unconscious on the floor, and Dad comes over picks kid up and takes kid to the hospital, the only thing everyone else in the building can, or should do is get the HE- double hockey sticks- out of the way! May not be the smartest thing to do, but NO PIECE OF PAPER holds more weight or power than thge parent. Not even the official scorer who apparently memorizes rule books, LOL

As for penalizing a team, or kicking a parent out of a game because the parent came down from the stands to check on their hurt child, well you can do that if you choose, and I can consider you to be a bloody moron if I choose for doing that, or even suggesting in a thread that you would.

So even if the medical personnel say not to move the student-athlete, even though the parent does, that's ok?

What about the Hippocratic Oath?

"I swear by Apollo, the healer, Asclepius, Hygieia, and Panacea, and I take to witness all the gods, all the goddesses, to keep according to my ability and my judgment, the following Oath and agreement:
To consider dear to me, as my parents, him who taught me this art; to live in common with him and, if necessary, to share my goods with him; To look upon his children as my own brothers, to teach them this art.

I will prescribe regimens for the good of my patients according to my ability and my judgment and never do harm to anyone.

I will not give a lethal drug to anyone if I am asked, nor will I advise such a plan; and similarly I will not give a woman a pessary to cause an abortion.

But I will preserve the purity of my life and my arts.

I will not cut for stone, even for patients in whom the disease is manifest; I will leave this operation to be performed by practitioners, specialists in this art.

In every house where I come I will enter only for the good of my patients, keeping myself far from all intentional ill-doing and all seduction and especially from the pleasures of love with women or with men, be they free or slaves.

All that may come to my knowledge in the exercise of my profession or in daily commerce with men, which ought not to be spread abroad, I will keep secret and will never reveal.

If I keep this oath faithfully, may I enjoy my life and practice my art, respected by all men and in all times; but if I swerve from it or violate it, may the reverse be my lot."

If I was a coach or floor official, I would rely more on the professional judgement/opinion of a medical professional than a paranoid, frantic parent. Parents, true, are doing what they think is best for their child(ren), but at what cost?

So in all actually the only way a parent should be allowed on the court is if they are medical professionals. If not, they need to stay out of the way of those that are. Like I said before, a parent should be involved yes, but only after the student-athlete has been removed from the court & out of sight of all spectators.

If I was working crowd control in this situation, I would physically put myself between the parent & the student-athlete so that they could not become one until after removed from the court. One of the primary rules in crowd control is to de-escalate the situation before it gets blown out of proportion. By allowing the parent onto the court, you have just allowed a match to be lit in a potentially explosive situation.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by chseagle

If I was working crowd control in this situation, I would physically put myself between the parent & the student-athlete so that they could not become one until after removed from the court. One of the primary rules in crowd control is to de-escalate the situation before it gets blown out of proportion. By allowing the parent onto the court, you have just allowed a match to be lit in a potentially explosive situation.

And if you get between me and my injured kid, there will be a much bigger problem. This is utter nonsense.

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by Smitty

And if you get between me and my injured kid, there will be a much bigger problem. This is utter nonsense.

Actually from a crowd control POV, it makes perfect sense as it gives the medical personnel present a chance to appropriately evaluate the situation without interference.

Like I said before, the parent would be allowed to be involved but as a bystander until the student-athlete is off the court & either in the locker room or in the process of being transported either via the parent themselves or ambulance.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by chseagle

Actually from a crowd control POV, it makes perfect sense as it gives the medical personnel present a chance to appropriately evaluate the situation without interference.

Like I said before, the parent would be allowed to be involved but as a bystander until the student-athlete is off the court & either in the locker room or in the process of being transported either via the parent themselves or ambulance.

Wow. We are not talking about a fight. We are talking about an injured child. You talk as if there are paramedics on hand waiting to treat injuries. What's happening until the paramedics get there (assuming paramedics are even needed)? You are being ridiculous in your abuse of power. I can see where it comes from - you definitely have a power issue.

[TimTaylor]

Originally Posted by Smitty

Wow. We are not talking about a fight. We are talking about an injured child. You talk as if there are paramedics on hand waiting to treat injuries. What's happening until the paramedics get there (assuming paramedics are even needed)? You are being ridiculous in your abuse of power. I can see where it comes from - you definitely have a power issue.

Actually Dave, from a legal standpoint he has no power. The parent or legal guardian of a minor is the only one that can consent or revoke permission to treat the minor in their charge. If the coach, trainer, paramedic, doctor, etc. wants to do something the parent can step in and say "don't touch my child" and that legally revokes any previous permission, written or otherwise. Anyone who interferes or attempts to interfere with a parent or guardian is committing one or more criminal acts - could be anything from custodial interference to assault and/or battery. This goes for a security guard or anyone else as well. The only entity that can override parental authority is a court of law. There would have to be significant extenuating circumstances to legitimately prevent a parent or guardian from going to the aid of or making decisions regarding the care of their child, and I can absolutely guarantee the NFHS "you can't come onto the court" rule won't qualify. If anyone tried to interfere with my going to the aid of or being involved in decisions regarding my injured child, I can guarantee they would be arrested - and I would pursue both criminal and civil actions.

Sometimes I can't believe the illusion of power some folks have!

OK, rant mode off.....

Congrats on hitting that 1000 post milestone!

Happy Holidays my friend! Heard it was snowing in Dallas today - keep warm & stay dry!

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by TimTaylor

Actually Dave, from a legal standpoint he has no power. The parent or legal guardian of a minor is the only one that can consent or revoke permission to treat the minor in their charge. If the coach, trainer, paramedic, doctor, etc. wants to do something the parent can step in and say "don't touch my child" and that legally revokes any previous permission, written or otherwise. Anyone who interferes or attempts to interfere with a parent or guardian is committing one or more criminal acts - could be anything from custodial interference to assault and/or battery. This goes for a security guard or anyone else as well. The only entity that can override parental authority is a court of law. There would have to be significant extenuating circumstances to legitimately prevent a parent or guardian from going to the aid of or making decisions regarding the care of their child, and I can absolutely guarantee the NFHS "you can't come onto the court" rule won't qualify. If anyone tried to interfere with my going to the aid of or being involved in decisions regarding my injured child, I can guarantee they would be arrested - and I would pursue both criminal and civil actions.

Sometimes I can't believe the illusion of power some folks have!

OK, rant mode off.....

Congrats on hitting that 1000 post milestone!

Happy Holidays my friend! Heard it was snowing in Dallas today - keep warm & stay dry!

Thanks Tim! I was going to say something about a lawsuit but I really don't know anything about the legal issues involved so I didn't want to say something I had no backing for (what a concept, eh?). Anyway, I am not going to say anything more right now about this subject. I will let you and others carry on the argument. You can't have a rational argument with the irrational, after all.

Thanks for the kudos on the post count - where are my prizes??

It's like friggin' Oregon in Dallas today. And I am supposed to be catching a flight to Portland tomorrow - I hope it doesn't get cancelled. It's nasty here.

Merry Xmas, my friend...

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by TimTaylor

Actually Dave, from a legal standpoint he has no power. The parent or legal guardian of a minor is the only one that can consent or revoke permission to treat the minor in their charge. If the coach, trainer, paramedic, doctor, etc. wants to do something the parent can step in and say "don't touch my child" and that legally revokes any previous permission, written or otherwise. Anyone who interferes or attempts to interfere with a parent or guardian is committing one or more criminal acts - could be anything from custodial interference to assault and/or battery. This goes for a security guard or anyone else as well. The only entity that can override parental authority is a court of law. There would have to be significant extenuating circumstances to legitimately prevent a parent or guardian from going to the aid of or making decisions regarding the care of their child, and I can absolutely guarantee the NFHS "you can't come onto the court" rule won't qualify. If anyone tried to interfere with my going to the aid of or being involved in decisions regarding my injured child, I can guarantee they would be arrested - and I would pursue both criminal and civil actions.

Sometimes I can't believe the illusion of power some folks have!

OK, rant mode off.....

Congrats on hitting that 1000 post milestone!

Happy Holidays my friend! Heard it was snowing in Dallas today - keep warm & stay dry!

Again, no one is attempting to prevent the parent from participating in their proper role as the legal decision maker for the injured child. Why are you equating a prohibition to run onto the court without proper authorization and/or escort with blocking the parent from making a legitimate medical decision? The two are totally unrelated.

The parent needs to remain in the stands until properly summoned if needed. You wouldn't contend that the parent is being prevented from fulfilling his/her proper role as the decision maker at the hospital because the person isn't allowed into the operating room would you? If something happens during a surgery and a doctor takes action in the course of the operation are you saying that you will try to have him arrested and pursue criminal and civil proceedings because you weren't permitted to be at your child's side holding his/her hand? Good luck with that.

[icallfouls]

This is a situation that happened to me in a ball game several years ago.

Local rivalry game with one very talented team, and one not so talented. The better team (A) was struggling early and had just started to make a run that would give them an 8 point lead.

Team A made a series of substitutions and my partner had just given the ball to B for an inbound. I am near the division line when all of a sudden coach A starts screaming for TO. The actions and conduct of the coach were so out of character that I blew my whistle to stop the action. I looked at the end of Bench A and see one of the players that had just been removed from the game colapse to the floor in a heap. It didn't look as serious as it turned out to be. BTW game is being played in B's gym.

Parents and other family members are running onto the floor (there is not a lot of room on the endlines, they had to cross the floor somehow). People are on the phone calling 9-1-1. The player's mother is screaming at the top of her lung's to the player "come back to" "Shelia" over and over.

GM consisted of the coach and the scorer's table personnel and a few others that also had other school duties. Due to the financial situation of the school there really wasn't anyone there that could offer assistance. The officials on the game had no knowledge of any kind that this player had a condition. The young man died in front of everyone that night.

As officials, had we started blowing our whistle and tried to keep this player's family from him at this time we would have had far more trouble on our hands than we would have wanted.

My point being, even if the injury doesn't initially seem serious to you, there might be other factors at work and preventing family to come to a players aid is not our job, nor is it worthy of a T.

I also have had games where players got fouled and the resulting contact lead to a broken wrist and a blown out knee. We did our job and got out of the way of the people who knew the situation better than the officials did. We usually only see these kids for a 1.5 hours. Part of our job is safety of the players, not to determine who offers assistance.

If the parent still wishes to say something, let GM handle it.

Just my 2 pennies worth.

[TimTaylor]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Again, no one is attempting to prevent the parent from participating in their proper role as the legal decision maker for the injured child.

Maybe it was chseagle's statement "If I was working crowd control in this situation, I would physically put myself between the parent & the student-athlete so that they could not become one until after removed from the court."
or yours "I won't but security might."

Why are you equating a prohibition to run onto the court without proper authorization and/or escort with blocking the parent from making a legitimate medical decision? The two are totally unrelated.

Actually they are very much related. Preventing a parent immediate access to the child in order to gain the information they may need in order to make decisions, in and of itself violates that right.

The bottom line is that basketball rules are just that - they have no legal standing. By contrast, the rights I've referred to are derived from portions of the 1st, 4th, 5th, 9th and 14th amendments to the constitution and numerous case law decisions dating back to the early 1900's.

The game is already interrupted for the injury. A parent entering solely to evaluate the nature and extent of an injury to their child is not disrupting anything, and in reality may help the situation resolve more quickly. T away if you want - by rule you can.....just be prepared to be crucified in the court of public opinion.

Anyway, I'm done here...this one's been flogged enough!

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by Smitty

Wow. We are not talking about a fight. We are talking about an injured child. You talk as if there are paramedics on hand waiting to treat injuries. What's happening until the paramedics get there (assuming paramedics are even needed)? You are being ridiculous in your abuse of power. I can see where it comes from - you definitely have a power issue.

Do you have any experience in crowd control/security?

It's not an abuse of power, it's called keeping all unneeded personnel away from the scene to maintain order for the medical personnel on hand in order to do what they need to do. This regulation comes to play whether it's a college football game or a rock concert. I've worked both with similar situations. Whether it's on the court/stage/field or up among the patrons in the stands, in a medical assist circumstance the only people allowed to be directly involved are the medical personnel/first responders.

In the situation of a parent being involved during the initial processing is if the parent is themselves a medical professional, otherwise they must remian a spectator until their child is removed from the court.

The only time a parent is allowed to be involved during the whole process is if the child involved is a young child (8-10 & below in age).

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Smitty

And if you get between me and my injured kid, there will be a much bigger problem. This is utter nonsense.

I won't, but security might.

You don't belong out there. It's that simple. I don't understand why people have such a hard time grasping this. The playing court is for the players and officials, no one else. PERIOD.

When there is an injury the appropriate people are beckoned on to attend to that individual.

[Smitty]

OK I give up.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Smitty

OK I give up.

Good because Dad's butt belongs in the stands. That is the area to which his admission ticket entitles him, not the playing court.

For the sake of argument, let's say that a child suffers a life-threatening injury on the court and the game is stopped. What skills does the average parent have which is going to help that child? Unless the parent is an EMT (fireman/police/first response trained) or medical doctor what good is it going to do to have the person down there? Is it going to please you that your child was able to die in your arms?

What happens when your child is transported to the hospital for surgery? Does the surgeon permit mom and dad into the operating room? No, you sit in the hallway and wait while the appropriate people handle the situation. This is no different, but because there isn't a wall between the stands and the court people somehow feel entitled to come out there. People really need to get over their sense of self-importance and remain where they belong.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

People really need to get over their sense of self-importance .....

Am I the only one who sees this statement as ironic?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Am I the only one who sees this statement as ironic?

Yes, you are.

It is so like you to try to turn such a statement around and point it at an official who insists that people don't go where they shouldn't. You simply don't grasp the argument.

You probably have a picture of an official running over trying to stop the people from coming out of the stands. That is not realistic.

What is realistic is for the official to find a far away location until the situation finishes and then to assess whatever penalties are necessary for the conduct. That is a big difference from being personally involved, and that is what makes the people who run over "self-important" and the official not, hence there is nothing ironic about the original statement. Do you need a lesson in the usage of the word? mbyron can certainly fill you in.