Game tonight has me pondering when to go get contact...

[jdw3018]

Had a really good game tonight. Ended as a four-point win, two teams with relatively talented ball-handlers and one with decent big men. Smaller team plays very tough, fundamental defense.

Overall, was pleased with how the game unfolded. However, we had 3 or 4 pretty decent crashes during the game that went uncalled. None of them were in my primary. One I'm pretty certain was a PC - it was in transition, I was C, it was in the lane opposite side and I had 4 or 5 players between me and the ball. Only saw the carnage. The others were all out of my PC and I didn't see the whole play.

They all left me with a bitter taste. The aftermath indicated there was far too much contact on most, if not all of them. The game would have been a better game, IMO, had something been called regardless of a block or charge.

I found myself second-guessing not getting the one that I'm pretty sure was a PC. It was the first of several. Any thoughts on how to handle this situation, both in terms of reaching for a call and in communicating with partners? All but one happened late in the game and we didn't have much of a break to talk about it.

Like I said, overall very happy with how the game went other than these 3 or 4 plays. They were all attempts to take a charge by the winning team - had the score been the other way in the last two minutes I could have seen it getting quite ugly.

Thoughts?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

Overall, was pleased with how the game unfolded. However, we had 3 or 4 pretty decent crashes during the game that went uncalled. None of them were in my primary. One I'm pretty certain was a PC - it was in transition, I was C, it was in the lane opposite side and I had 4 or 5 players between me and the ball. Only saw the carnage. The others were all out of my PC and I didn't see the whole play.

They all left me with a bitter taste. The aftermath indicated there was far too much contact on most, if not all of them. The game would have been a better game, IMO, had something been called regardless of a block or charge.


Thoughts?

No question you were right to leave them alone.

[SAK]

Originally Posted by just another ref

No question you were right to leave them alone.

I agree with JAR, if you think that you are guessing its best to leave it alone especially if you would be reaching to make the call. Don't call what you cannot explain.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by SAK

I agree with JAR, if you think that you are guessing its best to leave it alone especially if you would be reaching to make the call. Don't call what you cannot explain.

This is my basic philosophy, and it almost always serves me well. But it ended up in contradiction to the pretty clear philosophy around here to make sure we have a call in a crash when two players go to the floor.

No good solution here - a call needed to be made in most of these situations. The call needed to come from somewhere else.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

This is my basic philosophy, and it almost always serves me well. But it ended up in contradiction to the pretty clear philosophy around here to make sure we have a call in a crash when two players go to the floor.

No good solution here - a call needed to be made in most of these situations. The call needed to come from somewhere else.

I think your local philosophy is at least slightly overdone.

My impression is that in the OP you felt the need to carry your partner(s).
All I can say is be careful. Huge potential here to overstep your bounds, or be accused of doing so.

[Adam]

General rule of thumb; the further it is away from you, the worse it needs to be before you go get it.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

General rule of thumb; the further it is away from you, the worse it needs to be before you go get it.

No doubt.

The real point of the question is to get some idea on how to handle this type of situation. There was obviously some significant contact involving airborne shooters several times that ended with both players on the court. No call. Not a good situation that continues to escalate with each similar play.

I'm probably just venting as much as anything. These few non-calls were the few situations that led to frustrated players and coaches and a spotlight on us rather than a very well played game.

[bigdog5142]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

General rule of thumb; the further it is away from you, the worse it needs to be before you go get it.

Can't agree more.

My basic rule is that I have to think, "Oh CRAP, that's gotta be called!!!" in order to call something that's in my partner's primary or if it's totally across the court. I've only had a few of those instances.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

No doubt.

The real point of the question is to get some idea on how to handle this type of situation. There was obviously some significant contact involving airborne shooters several times that ended with both players on the court. No call. Not a good situation that continues to escalate with each similar play.

I'm probably just venting as much as anything. These few non-calls were the few situations that led to frustrated players and coaches and a spotlight on us rather than a very well played game.

I guess my theory is, unless it's a train wreck, I'm trusting my partners on their plays. I know I've had plays where there was no contact and both players went down. I've had plays where it could have been a charge, but the defense got a steal and a layup. Unless you absolutely know different and feel you have to get it to save the game (not just to make it a little better), trust that your partners passed for a reason.

Did you talk to them afterwards?

[tjones1]

Completely agree with Snaq and everyone else.

If I have to AT&T a call, then it's going to be non-basketball and something I have to get.

[mbyron]

This is something I always pre-game: "let's get a call on a train-wreck: with bodies flying we usually need to call something."

If we have a train-wreck and there's no call, I'm going to talk to my partner(s) at the next dead ball about it.

It is possible to have a good no-call when kids end up on the floor. If I'm lead and it happens right in front of me, I'll take a moment to face and look right at the player(s) on the floor in order to demonstrate that I'm covering the entire play. Sometimes I'll also signal to the players to get up (i.e., no foul).

[Ignats75]

Rule 4 Section 27. Know it. Love it. My favorite is Art 2 that ends,

...should not be considered illegal, even though the contact may be severe.

[jeffpea]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

Any thoughts on how to handle this situation, both in terms of reaching for a call and in communicating with partners? All but one happened late in the game and we didn't have much of a break to talk about it.

Thoughts?

I would trust that my partners can handle their areas until they prove to me that they can't (& the plays you've described tell me they can't)....then I'd come and get those calls in the last 2-3 minutes of the game.

My general rule is: stay in your own area unless it's a non-basketball play or a game changing play.

[biggravy]

Originally Posted by jdw3018 View Post
This is my basic philosophy, and it almost always serves me well. But it ended up in contradiction to the pretty clear philosophy around here to make sure we have a call in a crash when two players go to the floor.

No good solution here - a call needed to be made in most of these situations. The call needed to come from somewhere else.

Originally Posted by just another ref

I think your local philosophy is at least slightly overdone.

My impression is that in the OP you felt the need to carry your partner(s).
All I can say is be careful. Huge potential here to overstep your bounds, or be accused of doing so.

It may be overdone in some spots (two players running for a loose ball run into each other and fall) but for a drive to the basket and a crash between the ball carrier and the defender it's spot on. In that spot a huge crash needs to be called one way or another.

OP, it's not in your area you can't guess. What you can do next timeout and what I'm doing is going to my partners and saying "next time we have a crash like that, we NEED to get something." Hopefully we don't have a second or third or fourth.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by biggravy

It may be overdone in some spots (two players running for a loose ball run into each other and fall) but for a drive to the basket and a crash between the ball carrier and the defender it's spot on. In that spot a huge crash needs to be called one way or another.

OP, it's not in your area you can't guess. What you can do next timeout and what I'm doing is going to my partners and saying "next time we have a crash like that, we NEED to get something." Hopefully we don't have a second or third or fourth.

Good advice. I think you're right that the best way to handle would have been to be stronger in my questions at the next dead ball. The feedback I got was that my P was screened out and didn't get a good look at it either. Would have been a good time to say that next time we have a crash we need to make sure to be in position and have something.

Part of the problem was that the first one was the worst one. The others still had some "crash" aspect to them from what I could tell (again, never looking at the entire play), but after passing each one further frustrated players and coaches.

Ah well, overall a good game otherwise and a fun night with two good, fast-paced games.