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Old Tue Dec 22, 2009, 08:52am
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No T, no credibility?

What do you all think are the consequences for NOT giving a T when a coach crosses the line? I coached for a number of years before reffing (this is my 3rd year doing varsity, 5th overall). I have been slow to give Ts, giving the coaches much rope. Do you feel the coaches lose respect for refs that don't whack them when appropriate? Or, do they appreciate a ref that is willing to listen and be patient with them when they blow a gasket? I used to think it was the latter, now I am beginning to question that.
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Old Tue Dec 22, 2009, 09:50am
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Memorable quote

"When they give us a T it shows they know they're wrong"
--disgruntled coach to disgruntled mother of one of his future All-American seventh graders after conclusion of game in which he was whacked. As one of the officials, I was pleasantly gruntled.
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Old Tue Dec 22, 2009, 10:00am
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Old Tue Dec 22, 2009, 10:08am
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Smile

We all have different levels of too much. Coaches are working on trying to figure you out. Be consistent in how you enforce. Do not become the short fuse of the crew.

Learn techniques to help to defuse the coach. Talk softer, coach I am listening to you as long as this stays calm. Ask me a question and I am more than happy to answer them. You can not let your emotions crank up with them. You have to go the opposite direction.

I will give coaches enough rope to hang themselves with. If they personally attack via words either my partner or me, I will whack. If they do not like a judgement call, I let them look like jerks.

I have taken coaches by arm back towards their coaching box and tell them that I can not hear a thing that they are saying when they are outside of that box. Magic walls in that coaching box.

Hope this perspective helps....
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Old Tue Dec 22, 2009, 10:16am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lmeadski View Post
What do you all think are the consequences for NOT giving a T when a coach crosses the line? I coached for a number of years before reffing (this is my 3rd year doing varsity, 5th overall). I have been slow to give Ts, giving the coaches much rope. Do you feel the coaches lose respect for refs that don't whack them when appropriate? Or, do they appreciate a ref that is willing to listen and be patient with them when they blow a gasket? I used to think it was the latter, now I am beginning to question that.
If you think a coach crossed the line, you have to take care of business. You have to ask yourself, which one is going to make the game a better game, "Give a little rope or Whack'em"?

More times than not, talking to the coach or allowing him to say what's on his mind (within reason) will take care of it. You may have to admit you missed it or didn't see it the way he did. "Coach, I hear you... I didn't see it that way or I may even have missed it, but we're going to move on." This is only if you're talking with a level headed coach. Now, if he's a hot head from the door, you may not want to give him the pleasure of speaking with him. "Coach, I've heard enough (with the stop sign so everyone can see). If he continues, Whak'em!

Good Luck!
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Old Tue Dec 22, 2009, 10:18am
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Defusing is not my primary question

I feel I can defuse quite well and that's why I have given one whole technical in my entire reffing career. However, I feel a well respected ref (notice I did not say liked) will get less flack from coaches during the course of a game and the season. In turn, this makes game management easier. So, I guess I am asking if T-ing up coaches helps solidify us as refs or if patience is the better path? My 5 years of reffing have not provided me ample wisdom in this area yet.
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Old Tue Dec 22, 2009, 10:24am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lmeadski View Post
What do you all think are the consequences for NOT giving a T when a coach crosses the line? I coached for a number of years before reffing (this is my 3rd year doing varsity, 5th overall). I have been slow to give Ts, giving the coaches much rope. Do you feel the coaches lose respect for refs that don't whack them when appropriate? Or, do they appreciate a ref that is willing to listen and be patient with them when they blow a gasket? I used to think it was the latter, now I am beginning to question that.
As a former coach myself, I tend to give more leeway to coaches than players. But, when a coach does cross the line, the only way an official loses the coach's respect is if he thinks the official is indecisive or timid.
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Old Tue Dec 22, 2009, 10:31am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lmeadski View Post
I feel I can defuse quite well and that's why I have given one whole technical in my entire reffing career. However, I feel a well respected ref (notice I did not say liked) will get less flack from coaches during the course of a game and the season. In turn, this makes game management easier. So, I guess I am asking if T-ing up coaches helps solidify us as refs or if patience is the better path? My 5 years of reffing have not provided me ample wisdom in this area yet.
It seems to me you've answered your own question here.
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Old Tue Dec 22, 2009, 10:34am
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I don't get it

Quote:
Originally Posted by dacodee View Post
"Coach, I've heard enough (with the stop sign so everyone can see). If he continues, Whak'em!
Why does everyone seem to want "everyone to see" the warning? I don't understand this logic. If you think the stop sign helps to difuse, fine (I'm channeling my inner tomegun here), we can disagree on that. I just don't get this whole "everyone saw the warning so now I can ring him up" thought process.

We aren't required, or even asked, to warn a coach before issuing a T for unsporting behavior. Personally, I would much rather have a quiet word with the coach rather than escalate to a public admonishment.

I just don't get it.
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Old Tue Dec 22, 2009, 10:38am
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Originally Posted by lmeadski View Post
Do you feel the coaches lose respect for refs that don't whack them when the coach believes it is / the ref believes it is appropriate?
Yes
No

There is a "pecking order" in everything we do. On the court, you have control of the coach. In the AD's office, coach probably has control of your game assignments. You have to manage both situations.

It sounds like you have a good grasp of where the line is. If that is true and you are a good difuser, I think you have a better chance by being patient. I am guessing that you haven't passed on too many T's where the coach was clearly across the line.

I know this is not what you are saying but the idea of using T's to get coach's respect is a dangerous path that leads nowhere. The respect comes from somewhere else.
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Old Tue Dec 22, 2009, 10:47am
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Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
Why does everyone seem to want "everyone to see" the warning?
After my P and I completed our F/JV games last week, we watched the first half of the V game.

I was watching something else and my P said to me - "The C is going to ring-up the H coach any minute now"....... A few minutes later, "TWEET!" Whack!

Whether it was a public admonition (stop sign), the look, a talk, a comment, whatever, my P saw it coming.....

By the end of the quarter both coaches were seated and the gym was a lot quieter.

You'll develop your own threshold of what you will allow or not. But, don't let them "cross the line" or you'll be walked on.
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Old Tue Dec 22, 2009, 10:47am
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Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
Why does everyone seem to want "everyone to see" the warning? I don't understand this logic. If you think the stop sign helps to difuse, fine (I'm channeling my inner tomegun here), we can disagree on that. I just don't get this whole "everyone saw the warning so now I can ring him up" thought process.

We aren't required, or even asked, to warn a coach before issuing a T for unsporting behavior. Personally, I would much rather have a quiet word with the coach rather than escalate to a public admonishment.

I just don't get it.
I have this same question often. Those who have recommended it to me in the past (in clinics/camps/pregames/over beers) believe it is important to get it on film as much as anything. That way if/when a coach complains to the AD who calls the assignor who calls you, you can prove that you provided a warning.

If you work in an area where coaches/ADs have big influence and you need to be able to "prove" to your assignor that a T was warranted, I get it. But if your assignor backs you up on your word, then all the public "stop" sign does is show up the coach and have as much potential to create a more adversarial situation as a better situation, IMO.

Write me down for preferring the quiet word.
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Old Tue Dec 22, 2009, 10:51am
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Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
Why does everyone seem to want "everyone to see" the warning?
Simple... Depending on where you are and who's in the building, you may want everyone to see that coach has been warned. Besides, when the other coach see's this, he knows you've addressed it.

Also, it's almost always the coaches word against yours. If the AD/Principal or even the media see's you've warned the coach for something, the coach doesn't have much leg to stand on when you send in your report. It also allows your partner to know what's happening, just in case you haven't had a chance to tell him/her. When he has a problem with the same coach, he can bypass any warnings and go straight to the business, "WHACK"!

Peace
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Old Tue Dec 22, 2009, 11:08am
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The stop sign doesn't prove the T was warranted; all it does is show that you've publicly warned the coach. So what? If you have an assigner who doesn't believe your word over the coach's, it's not going to help.

Coach, "sure, he warned me for asking a polite question. Then, I turned around and sat down and he called a technical foul."

There's nothing on the tape that's going to prove jack sh!t.
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Old Tue Dec 22, 2009, 11:20am
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Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
The stop sign doesn't prove the T was warranted; all it does is show that you've publicly warned the coach. So what? If you have an assigner who doesn't believe your word over the coach's, it's not going to help.

Coach, "sure, he warned me for asking a polite question. Then, I turned around and sat down and he called a technical foul."

There's nothing on the tape that's going to prove jack sh!t.
Perception, Perception, Perception... In that order...

It doesn't matter what was said. Coach was warned for something and the entire building saw it. Whenever or whatever coach gets whacked for, everyone knows he was warned earlier.

With regards to my assigner believing me or not, I'm not too concerned about that because my game was well managed by taking care of business and going about it in an appropriate manner. I gave the Perception that coach was warned for something. I/My partner whacked coach because the Perception was that he got a warning for something he/she said/did earlier. Beside, if you whack'em without a public warning, everyone in the building is wondering why coached got whacked.
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