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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sat Dec 12, 2009, 02:36pm
M.A.S.H.
 
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Another Learning Experience: Traveling OOB/Jump Stop

Set the stage: 7th grade Jr High Boys Tournament, Indiana team playing an Illinois team

<Start Lesson>

I learned two new things today.

1) When a thrower has the ball at their disposal and they jump in the air and land still out of bounds (without violating 3 feet or stepping inbounds) that this player has committed a traveling violation. In addition, since I didn't call it, it was "understood" that it must be a difference in rules from Indiana to Illinois.

Coach: "It must be an Illinois' thing."

TJ: "No, coach...it's a Fed thing."


2) When a dribbler jump stops (i.e. jumps off one foot and lands simultaneously on both) that the player may now choose any foot to be their pivot.

Soooo, when his player did this and I called a travel he proceeded to tell me that he had been coaching for 32 years, has 322 varsity wins, officiated for 22, and has taught his kids this and won a state championship doing this -- great, whatever.

While I admit I somewhat allowed him to crap on my floor while he took a 30-second time-out to tell me all this... I didn't whack him as I thought he had already embarrassed himself enough.

Sadly, a comment from a bleacher jockey said this: "Hey Ref, the coach is right... there's a referee sitting right by me and he says the coach is right." Eh, boy.

<End of Lesson>

It was an interesting morning to say the least.

I think JR said it best: Silly monkeys!
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Old Sat Dec 12, 2009, 04:20pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjones1 View Post
Set the stage: 7th grade Jr High Boys Tournament, Indiana team playing an Illinois team

<Start Lesson>

I learned two new things today.

1) When a thrower has the ball at their disposal and they jump in the air and land still out of bounds (without violating 3 feet or stepping inbounds) that this player has committed a traveling violation. In addition, since I didn't call it, it was "understood" that it must be a difference in rules from Indiana to Illinois.

Coach: "It must be an Illinois' thing."

TJ: "No, coach...it's a Fed thing."
Funny, I had the exact same thing with a coach of a Georgia team last night. Coach wanted a travel on a throw-in. Had a dead ball immediately following and told him he has the 36" area, etc. "But he can't move both his feet can he?!?" Yep. As long as at least one foot stays over that 3' area, he's fine. "Is that a South Carolina rule?" Nope, that's the Fed. "Huh."

Quote:
Originally Posted by tjones1 View Post
2) When a dribbler jump stops (i.e. jumps off one foot and lands simultaneously on both) that the player may now choose any foot to be their pivot.

Soooo, when his player did this and I called a travel he proceeded to tell me that he had been coaching for 32 years, has 322 varsity wins, officiated for 22, and has taught his kids this and won a state championship doing this -- great, whatever.

While I admit I somewhat allowed him to crap on my floor while he took a 30-second time-out to tell me all this... I didn't whack him as I thought he had already embarrassed himself enough.

Sadly, a comment from a bleacher jockey said this: "Hey Ref, the coach is right... there's a referee sitting right by me and he says the coach is right." Eh, boy.
This may go back to the definition of a jump stop. Until I became an official and learned the rules, a jump stop (as I was taught) involved gathering the ball in the air and landing on both feet simultaneously. In this case, of course, it is legal to then establish a pivot foot.

So, when explaining to a coach that a player can't pivot after a jump stop, if the coach is thinking of a jump stop as I was taught, he'd be very confused.

Not sure that's the situation you had (a coach confused about what a jump stop actually is), but it's possible.
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Old Sat Dec 12, 2009, 04:25pm
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Usually this discussion takes place after we call the kid for a travel.
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Old Sat Dec 12, 2009, 04:30pm
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A girl last night drove to the basket, picked up her dribble in the lane, jumped,
(not even sure if she jumped off one foot or two) and came down with one foot in front of the other, not even close to simultaneously. I thought she had changed her mind in mid-air and gotten disoriented. Partner and I both whistled the travel.

Coach stood up with hands on hips. "We teach that move. That is not a travel."

In spite of myself, I laughed a little.
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Old Sat Dec 12, 2009, 05:07pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdw3018 View Post
This may go back to the definition of a jump stop. Until I became an official and learned the rules, a jump stop (as I was taught) involved gathering the ball in the air and landing on both feet simultaneously. In this case, of course, it is legal to then establish a pivot foot.

So, when explaining to a coach that a player can't pivot after a jump stop, if the coach is thinking of a jump stop as I was taught, he'd be very confused.

Not sure that's the situation you had (a coach confused about what a jump stop actually is), but it's possible.
That could be; however, the situation we had certainly didn't involve the player catching the ball in the air and landing simultaneously with both feet - which is legal.

It is my guess that he thought any "jump" you may pivot.
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Old Sat Dec 12, 2009, 05:56pm
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in #2

it's a function of when they stop their dribble. Certainly a player can have a sitch where he/she is dribbling, during the dribble alights off one foot, gathers the ball in the air an lands on both feet. He/she can still pivot and that is what most coaches teach and maybe what your coach was thinking. In your post you didn't make it clear when the dribble ended.
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Old Sat Dec 12, 2009, 06:02pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjones1 View Post
Set the stage: 7th grade Jr High Boys Tournament, Indiana team playing an Illinois team

<Start Lesson>

I learned two new things today.

1) When a thrower has the ball at their disposal and they jump in the air and land still out of bounds (without violating 3 feet or stepping inbounds) that this player has committed a traveling violation. In addition, since I didn't call it, it was "understood" that it must be a difference in rules from Indiana to Illinois.

Coach: "It must be an Illinois' thing."

TJ: "No, coach...it's a Fed thing."


2) When a dribbler jump stops (i.e. jumps off one foot and lands simultaneously on both) that the player may now choose any foot to be their pivot.

Soooo, when his player did this and I called a travel he proceeded to tell me that he had been coaching for 32 years, has 322 varsity wins, officiated for 22, and has taught his kids this and won a state championship doing this -- great, whatever.

While I admit I somewhat allowed him to crap on my floor while he took a 30-second time-out to tell me all this... I didn't whack him as I thought he had already embarrassed himself enough.

Sadly, a comment from a bleacher jockey said this: "Hey Ref, the coach is right... there's a referee sitting right by me and he says the coach is right." Eh, boy.

<End of Lesson>

It was an interesting morning to say the least.

I think JR said it best: Silly monkeys!

Here in Hawaii we use National Federation of State High School Association Rules, and

Rule 4 SECTION 42 THROW-IN, THROWER, DESIGNATED SPOT (NOTE) states
The thrower must keep one foot on or over the spot until the ball is released. Pivot-foot restrictions and the traveling rule are not in effect for a throw-in.

Rule 4 SECTION 44 ART.2, a3 A player who catches the ball while moving or dribbling, may stop, and establish a pivot foot as follows:

On one foot, the player may jump off that foot and simultaneously land on both. Neither foot can be a pivot in this case.

Aloha!

Jose'

Last edited by NoFear; Sat Dec 12, 2009 at 06:08pm.
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Old Sat Dec 12, 2009, 06:14pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoFear View Post
Here in Hawaii we use National Federation of State High School Association Rules, and

Rule 4 SECTION 42 THROW-IN, THROWER, DESIGNATED SPOT (NOTE) states
The thrower must keep one foot on or over the spot until the ball is released. Pivot-foot restrictions and the traveling rule are not in effect for a throw-in.

Rule 4 SECTION 44 ART.2, a3 A player who catches the ball while moving or dribbling, may stop, and establish a pivot foot as follows:

On one foot, the player may jump off that foot and simultaneously land on both. Neither foot can be a pivot in this case.

Aloha!

Jose'
Yes, I know. There is much sarcasm in the "Start Lesson" and "End Lesson".
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Old Sat Dec 12, 2009, 06:15pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjones1 View Post
TJ: "No, coach...it's a Fed thing."
Typically after that, I get some response like, "We don't play by Fed rules; we play by IHSA rules."
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Old Sat Dec 12, 2009, 07:32pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjones1 View Post
Soooo, when his player did this and I called a travel he proceeded to tell me that he had been coaching for 32 years, has 322 varsity wins, officiated for 22, and has taught his kids this and won a state championship doing this -- great, whatever.
So he has coached for 32 years and has 322 wins? Most varsity teams around here have 22-24 varsity games per season. So he has coached between 704-768 games and won 322...hmm...He wins somewhere around 46% of his games. Maybe if he knew the rules, his teams might fair better. Just a thought

-Josh
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