crazy game, great learning experience

[jumpmaster]

during the 16 year old BR state final game last night, I had 3 experiences that I learned and earned my money. We were working 3 man crew, I was U3.

1) outs, runners not important. BR hits a shot to CF gap that rolls to the fence. I observe him rounding second but do not SEE him step on the bag. As BR pulls into 3rd for a stand up triple F5, F6 and F1 start chirping "he missed the bag, he missed the bag" almost at the same time. I steal a quick glance at U1 and he is heading back to A. I steal a quick look at BR he looks at me like "oh $h!+, I'm screwed". One of BRs teammates yells "Go back". F1 throws to F4, who steps on 2B. I call the out. I didn't see it, my partner didn't see it. I have to make a decision and live with it based on the circumstances surrounding the situation. As BR's teammates take the field, then new F8 runs by me and says "great call, he missed it by a mile". What I learned ALWAYS watch the foot hit the bag and it never hurts to be lucky.

2) R1, 1 out. Hit and run on. BR hits high blooper to F8. R1 touches second and realizes that F8 is probably going to make the catch. R1 runs back towards 1B without touching 2nd. F8 drops the ball, R1 sees the drop and then turns and heads back to second and the throw from F8 to F6 beats him. I signal safe because I know he was safe the first time he hit the bag. I know he will be out on appeal because he didn't touch 2B enroute back to 1st. I know the throw beat him back to 2B the second time. I call time and call our UIC over, who is U1. He asks, did R1 beat the throw to 2B. No. Then nothing else matters. The missed base is an appeal play. I call R1 out and get an earful from the head coach. He earned that right on this one. The 1B coach tells U1, good call.

3) R2, R3, 1 out. Interference between R2 and F6 on a ground ball in the infield. R2 is out. R3 returns to 3rd, BR to 1st. I had never seen the mechanics for this, or the rule applied in a game properly.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by jumpmaster
2) R1, 1 out. Hit and run on. BR hits high blooper to F8. R1 touches second and realizes that F8 is probably going to make the catch. R1 runs back towards 1B without touching 2nd.

Did R1 touch second and return or *touch and pass* second and return? If it's the former, no retouch is needed.

F8 drops the ball, R1 sees the drop and then turns and heads back to second and the throw from F8 to F6 beats him. I signal safe because I know he was safe the first time he hit the bag.

Doesn't matter. Once he returned, he reinstated the force (the retouch -- or lack thereof -- has no bearing on this). You should have had an out right here.

[WindyCityBlue]

Originally posted by jumpmaster
during the 16 year old BR state final game last night, I had 3 experiences that I learned and earned my money. We were working 3 man crew, I was U3.

1) outs, runners not important. BR hits a shot to CF gap that rolls to the fence. I observe him rounding second but do not SEE him step on the bag. As BR pulls into 3rd for a stand up triple F5, F6 and F1 start chirping "he missed the bag, he missed the bag" almost at the same time. I steal a quick glance at U1 and he is heading back to A. I steal a quick look at BR he looks at me like "oh $h!+, I'm screwed". One of BRs teammates yells "Go back". F1 throws to F4, who steps on 2B. I call the out. I didn't see it, my partner didn't see it. I have to make a decision and live with it based on the circumstances surrounding the situation. As BR's teammates take the field, then new F8 runs by me and says "great call, he missed it by a mile". What I learned ALWAYS watch the foot hit the bag and it never hurts to be lucky.
NOOOOOOOOOO! You cannot call something you did not see!
I'm sorry if this stings, but you did not earn your money. Yes, the kid looked guilty; yes, the kids were saying he missed the base. No, you did not see it, so...how can you justify the call. This was a big game and you were not watching your ONLY responsibility. In 3 man mechanics, on a line drive to the outfield and you've come in, the only thing you HAVE TO WATCH IS THE RUNNER GO INTO SECOND AND POSSIBLY THIRD. You compounded this mistake by guessing. We all make mistakes, but you get paid to see the call. If you did not, you must ask for help. If no one saw it, it did not happen.

2) R1, 1 out. Hit and run on. BR hits high blooper to F8. R1 touches second and realizes that F8 is probably going to make the catch. R1 runs back towards 1B without touching 2nd. F8 drops the ball, R1 sees the drop and then turns and heads back to second and the throw from F8 to F6 beats him. I signal safe because I know he was safe the first time he hit the bag. I know he will be out on appeal because he didn't touch 2B enroute back to 1st. I know the throw beat him back to 2B the second time. I call time and call our UIC over, who is U1. He asks, did R1 beat the throw to 2B. No. Then nothing else matters. The missed base is an appeal play. I call R1 out and get an earful from the head coach. He earned that right on this one. The 1B coach tells U1, good call.

3) R2, R3, 1 out. Interference between R2 and F6 on a ground ball in the infield. R2 is out. R3 returns to 3rd, BR to 1st. I had never seen the mechanics for this, or the rule applied in a game properly.

[LDUB]

Originally posted by jumpmaster
2) R1, 1 out. Hit and run on. BR hits high blooper to F8. R1 touches second and realizes that F8 is probably going to make the catch. R1 runs back towards 1B without touching 2nd. F8 drops the ball, R1 sees the drop and then turns and heads back to second and the throw from F8 to F6 beats him. I signal safe because I know he was safe the first time he hit the bag. I know he will be out on appeal because he didn't touch 2B enroute back to 1st. I know the throw beat him back to 2B the second time. I call time and call our UIC over, who is U1. He asks, did R1 beat the throw to 2B. No. Then nothing else matters. The missed base is an appeal play. I call R1 out and get an earful from the head coach. He earned that right on this one. The 1B coach tells U1, good call.

So did you call him out on the force or on the appeal? I agree with Bob that the force out is the correct call, but if you called R2 out on the appeal then I think that is the wrong call. On a play like this I would expect the defense to verbalize that they are making an appeal. If F6 just touches the base then I would not call R2 out.

[DG]

Originally posted by jumpmaster
during the 16 year old BR state final game last night, I had 3 experiences that I learned and earned my money. We were working 3 man crew, I was U3.

1) outs, runners not important. BR hits a shot to CF gap that rolls to the fence. I observe him rounding second but do not SEE him step on the bag. As BR pulls into 3rd for a stand up triple F5, F6 and F1 start chirping "he missed the bag, he missed the bag" almost at the same time. I steal a quick glance at U1 and he is heading back to A. I steal a quick look at BR he looks at me like "oh $h!+, I'm screwed". One of BRs teammates yells "Go back". F1 throws to F4, who steps on 2B. I call the out. I didn't see it, my partner didn't see it. I have to make a decision and live with it based on the circumstances surrounding the situation. As BR's teammates take the field, then new F8 runs by me and says "great call, he missed it by a mile". What I learned ALWAYS watch the foot hit the bag and it never hurts to be lucky.

2) R1, 1 out. Hit and run on. BR hits high blooper to F8. R1 touches second and realizes that F8 is probably going to make the catch. R1 runs back towards 1B without touching 2nd. F8 drops the ball, R1 sees the drop and then turns and heads back to second and the throw from F8 to F6 beats him. I signal safe because I know he was safe the first time he hit the bag. I know he will be out on appeal because he didn't touch 2B enroute back to 1st. I know the throw beat him back to 2B the second time. I call time and call our UIC over, who is U1. He asks, did R1 beat the throw to 2B. No. Then nothing else matters. The missed base is an appeal play. I call R1 out and get an earful from the head coach. He earned that right on this one. The 1B coach tells U1, good call.

3) R2, R3, 1 out. Interference between R2 and F6 on a ground ball in the infield. R2 is out. R3 returns to 3rd, BR to 1st. I had never seen the mechanics for this, or the rule applied in a game properly.

1) You did not SEE him step on the bag, but did you SEE him miss the bag? If did not SEE him miss the bag, then don't call what you did not SEE.

2) I have nothing here. R1 reached 2B safely and now is off the base, and confused. He goes back to 2B but the force is off, because he tagged the base and is now off the base, albeit on the wrong side of the base. Tag him off the base, otherwise...

3) Correct. As U3 your partner is probably in B for this play and mechanic would be "that's interference, runner is out", while pointing at R2. "You, return to 3B" while pointing at R3, "You, stay at 1B", while pointing at BR, who has most likely made it there by now. I would expect U2 to make this call.

[WindyCityBlue]

Apparently the text from my post got jumbled in with the quote...sorry but I'm doing this on a PDA. (5" screen so it's very tiny)

NOOOOOOOOOO! You cannot call something you did not see!
I'm sorry if this stings, but you did not earn your money. Yes, the kid looked guilty; yes, the kids were saying he missed the base. No, you did not see it, so...how can you justify the call. This was a big game and you were not watching your ONLY responsibility. In 3 man mechanics, on a line drive to the outfield and you've come in, the only thing you HAVE TO WATCH IS THE RUNNER GO INTO SECOND AND POSSIBLY THIRD. You compounded this mistake by guessing. We all make mistakes, but you get paid to see the call. If you did not, you must ask for help. If no one saw it, it did not happen.

[zebracz]

Originally posted by DG

3) Correct. As U3 your partner is probably in B for this play and mechanic would be "that's interference, runner is out", while pointing at R2. "You, return to 3B" while pointing at R3, "You, stay at 1B", while pointing at BR, who has most likely made it there by now. I would expect U2 to make this call. [/B]

I agree; And also, shouldn't we note that U2 can rule two outs (double play), if he judges that F6 could have thrown one? Inning over? I mean atleast he would've thrown the BR out, if R2's interference was intentional or what? Or say, if bases were loaded; what about turning the 6-4-3 double? or am I off in left field? lol

[jumpmaster]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
Apparently the text from my post got jumbled in with the quote...sorry but I'm doing this on a PDA. (5" screen so it's very tiny)

NOOOOOOOOOO! You cannot call something you did not see!
I'm sorry if this stings, but you did not earn your money. Yes, the kid looked guilty; yes, the kids were saying he missed the base. No, you did not see it, so...how can you justify the call. This was a big game and you were not watching your ONLY responsibility. In 3 man mechanics, on a line drive to the outfield and you've come in, the only thing you HAVE TO WATCH IS THE RUNNER GO INTO SECOND AND POSSIBLY THIRD. You compounded this mistake by guessing. We all make mistakes, but you get paid to see the call. If you did not, you must ask for help. If no one saw it, it did not happen.

This point is the most important lesson I came away with this weekend. I made a huge mistake because I wasn't paying close enough attention to the situation at hand. I made a call based on indicators, NOT what I saw. And yes, it stings. I was lucky the call was right. I learned don't get complacent on the ball field.

zebracz - you are also correct and this was post-gamed.

[His High Holiness]

Originally posted by jumpmaster
1) outs, runners not important. BR hits a shot to CF gap that rolls to the fence. I observe him rounding second but do not SEE him step on the bag. As BR pulls into 3rd for a stand up triple F5, F6 and F1 start chirping "he missed the bag, he missed the bag" almost at the same time. I steal a quick glance at U1 and he is heading back to A. I steal a quick look at BR he looks at me like "oh $h!+, I'm screwed". One of BRs teammates yells "Go back". F1 throws to F4, who steps on 2B. I call the out. I didn't see it, my partner didn't see it. I have to make a decision and live with it based on the circumstances surrounding the situation. As BR's teammates take the field, then new F8 runs by me and says "great call, he missed it by a mile". What I learned ALWAYS watch the foot hit the bag and it never hurts to be lucky.

This story reminds me of my college playing days. Keep the following in mind as you move up the food chain:

When I played college ball, one of the bench warmers had the job of watching all runners touch the bases. Another bench warmer, usually me, had the job of watching the UMPIRES watch the runners touch the bases. When I saw an umpire fail to watch a runner touch a base, I quietly informed the coach.

Upon hearing this from me, sometimes the coach would yell at the players to appeal. He would yell for an appeal even if the runners had in fact, touched the bases. The fact that the umpires had not watched for this was the basis for an appeal.

Twice, in my college career, the coach was able to buy an out, when in fact, the runner had touched the base. On those occasions, we had an umpire just like you, who was guessing.

We got a double benefit from this deception. In both cases, an ejection from the other team followed.

Peter

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by DG


2) I have nothing here. R1 reached 2B safely and now is off the base, and confused. He goes back to 2B but the force is off, because he tagged the base and is now off the base, albeit on the wrong side of the base. Tag him off the base, otherwise...

Please check 7.08(e) and see if you want to change your answer.

[aepitaz]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

Please check 7.08(e) and see if you want to change your answer.

I have personally called this and had to eject a coach because of it. He wasn't happy, but after looking it up I knew I was right and won't easily forget it.

[DG]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

Please check 7.08(e) and see if you want to change your answer.

I stand corrected. Thanks.