4th foul

[Clark Kent]

I realize we won't find it anywhere in the manuals but how aware should we be of the player's and their foul situations? Do you take notice when a kid picks up his/her 4th not wanting to give them a cheap 5th? Or do you go about your modus operandi as if that is part of the game and a foul is a foul regardless of how many the kid has?

I assume I will get both answers here so for those who do take note how do you go about it? If the team has a scoreboard that indicates the player's fouls I have been able to take note there, however when there isn't a scoreboard with such features how do you wise sagacious veterans go about knowing?

[Welpe]

I'm just a basketball rookie myself but I try not to make any of my calls cheap.

[bbcof83]

At my modest level of officiating (2nd yr HS vars) I'm not concerned with player foul situations. I am aware when team fouls hit 6 but I don't concern myself with individual situations.

It seems like at higher levels (certainly big time D1) this would be a consideration though.

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by Clark Kent

I realize we won't find it anywhere in the manuals but how aware should we be of the player's and their foul situations? Do you take notice when a kid picks up his/her 4th not wanting to give them a cheap 5th? Or do you go about your modus operandi as if that is part of the game and a foul is a foul regardless of how many the kid has?

I assume I will get both answers here so for those who do take note how do you go about it? If the team has a scoreboard that indicates the player's fouls I have been able to take note there, however when there isn't a scoreboard with such features how do you wise sagacious veterans go about knowing?

The last thing I have time or mental capacity for is keeping track of how many fouls each individual player has.

The only time I let it affect my game is when I do notice it, if there is an occasion where a certain player has already been whistled for 3 or more fouls, and he/she is involved in a play where there is a foul, but he/she and his/her teammate both fouled at the same time, I might be more inclined to assign the foul to the other teammate. But that rarely happens.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by fiasco

The only time I let it affect my game is when I do notice it, if there is an occasion where a certain player has already been whistled for 3 or more fouls, and he/she is involved in a play where there is a foul, but he/she and his/her teammate both fouled at the same time, I might be more inclined to assign the foul to the other teammate.

So, what do you do when that player who had 4 fouls hits the game-winning shot because you allowed them to stay in the game by assigning the foul to a different player?

[Clark Kent]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

So, what do you do when that player who had 4 fouls hits the game-winning shot because you allowed them to stay in the game by assigning the foul to a different player?

I give him a high-five, pat him on the butt and say "great shot!"

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

So, what do you do when that player who had 4 fouls hits the game-winning shot because you allowed them to stay in the game by assigning the foul to a different player?

I don't even think twice about it, because both players fouled equally, I just happened to assign it to the player with fewer fouls, so I'll sleep just fine at night.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by fiasco

I don't even think twice about it, because both players fouled equally, I just happened to assign it to the player with fewer fouls, so I'll sleep just fine at night.

If both players "fouled equally", as you say, then why aren't you enforcing a double foul? Tell me again how you "sleep fine at night" knowing you saw a foul committed by a player, and purposely chose to ignore it with the sole purpose of making sure they don't foul out?

I've seen this theory stated by a number of officials, but I have yet to see any rule, case, or philosophy in writing from the NFHS or NCAA backing this theory. If A1 has 4 fouls, and they commit a foul, they're done. The only real reason I can see for an official not calling the 5th foul is because they don't have the guts to go over and tell the coach that player has fouled out.

Yea, it's a little harsh. But tell me again what rule, case, interp or memo you are following with this theory?

[TwoDot]

At a recent 8th grade game of my daughters, where her team had 6 players and the other had 5. I noticed at halftime the officials looked over the scorebook to find out how many fouls the players had.
in the second half which was a blowout home team up by 25 over my daughters team the R got upset at the coach complaining about the fouls not being called. Very Obvious! after some heated discussion between the Coach, Ref, and Some fans, it was said very loud that they were trying to keep everyone in the game. They then got p*ssed and said " okay we'll call everything."
Interestingly the game flowed much better and ended up being played 4 on 4 at the end.
I would suggest not to do this, but call the obvious fouls. Be consistant in what you call, not adjusting to the play. Let the players adjust to the calls. That is the only way they learn.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by fiasco

I don't even think twice about it, because both players fouled equally, I just happened to assign it to the player with fewer fouls, so I'll sleep just fine at night.

fiasco and M&M Guy:

Please read the definition of a multiple foul.

MTD, Sr.

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Yea, it's a little harsh. But tell me again what rule, case, interp or memo you are following with this theory?

Let's see, what do you guys call it around here....game management?

[Clark Kent]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

fiasco:

Please read the definition of a multiple foul.

MTD, Sr.

4.19.11

"A multiple foul is a situation in which two or more teammates commit personal fouls against the same opponent at approximately the same time."

p.s. that was my 100th post....very anti-climatic!

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

fiasco and M&M Guy:

Please read the definition of a multiple foul.

MTD, Sr.

Mark,

Please read the definition of a legal screen.

fiasco

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

If both players "fouled equally", as you say, then why aren't you enforcing a double foul? Tell me again how you "sleep fine at night" knowing you saw a foul committed by a player, and purposely chose to ignore it with the sole purpose of making sure they don't foul out?

I'm assuming you meant multiple foul.

You can easily apply advantage/disadvantage here. If the fouls are equal (ie, two players hitting the arm of an offensive player attempting a shot), no more advantage has been gained than if only one player had hit the arm.

Now, if you have a defensive player hitting the arm while another defensive player is pushing in the back, then, yes, I would call a multiple foul.

Calling a multiple foul in the first scenario, especially when that foul causes a player to foul out, wouldn't fly with my commissioner. He'd mark be down for being over officious, even if I did use the excuse that some rules junkies on a message board really really wanted me to call a multiple foul.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

fiasco and M&M Guy:

Please read the definition of a multiple foul.

MTD, Sr.

Sorry, Mark - you're right.

I'm just getting a little misty-eyed and couldn't see what I was typing.