4th foul

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I know this is hard for you to understand. You live in fantasy land and think everything is always perfect when it comes to the rules or the job you do on the court.

I guess I see your point.

Peace

What is hard for me to understand is when a guy contradicts himself in back to back posts, then, when asked about it, dismisses it all with another post like the one above, which says, basically, nothing.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

What is hard for me to understand is when a guy contradicts himself in back to back posts, then, when asked about it, dismisses it all with another post like the one above, which says, basically, nothing.

You took two completely different statements and tried to marry them together. That is not a contradiction unless I made the same statement in the same post or topic. You do not understand because you do not know the difference between a statement and a larger context. Not caring about what I called before does not mean I am going to call the last foul totally incorrectly as you have implied. I simply said that what I did before does not matter if the last foul is bad. I stand by that statement and just like teams do not focus on the first few minutes of the game the same way they do at the end of the game.

A good example of this was the Big 12 Championship football game. There was a play in the 4th Quarter that was probably a bad call and the play stood and helped result Nebraska to take the lead based on the field position and events after this call. But what was the focus of this game and the outcome? What happen on what appeared to be the very last play of the game and when the play was reviewed the media, coach and players focused on this "last play" and you almost heard nothing about the bad call early in the quarter which had in my opinion a much bigger impact on the possible outcome. And as a result of what happen on the last play, conspiracy theories have been suggested, official's judgments have been in question and the entire BCS situation has been called into question. But you hear nothing about how Texas might have lost the game and why the officials that were so in on the fix "screwed" Texas in an earlier play of the game. Same applies to what we are talking about here.

Peace

[tadams]

Back to the topic.....

So I am new to basketball, have done a ton of baseball. The original post was do you treat the 5th foul differently. I read all the posts and watched this thread wonder. I have heard "it better be good", "nothing cheap", give it to someone else if you can. I understand game management is always an issue. Maybe basketball is different but come on guys have some balls. As an official you are there to bring fairness to the game and apply the rules. Any vetern official will say to a rookie that the most important thing to learn as an official is to be consistant. By not calling the foul you are intentionally being unfair to the other team. Shame on you. If your standards of fouls change as the game progresses you deserve the grief you get. If it was a foul you would have called on a player with 0 fouls it has to be a foul on a player with 4.

Let the comments fly.

[M&M Guy]

Jeff - you mean you had the guts to make the proper call, instead of the one the coach and players wanted you to call?

I'm shocked. Shocked, I tell 'ya.

(Good job.)

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Jeff - you mean you had the guts to make the proper call, instead of the one the coach and players wanted you to call?

I'm shocked. Shocked, I tell 'ya.

(Good job.)

I never suggested otherwise. But then again I forgot where I am writing this response.

Peace

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by tadams

Back to the topic.....

So I am new to basketball, have done a ton of baseball. The original post was do you treat the 5th foul differently. I read all the posts and watched this thread wonder. I have heard "it better be good", "nothing cheap", give it to someone else if you can. I understand game management is always an issue. Maybe basketball is different but come on guys have some balls. As an official you are there to bring fairness to the game and apply the rules. Any vetern official will say to a rookie that the most important thing to learn as an official is to be consistant. By not calling the foul you are intentionally being unfair to the other team. Shame on you. If your standards of fouls change as the game progresses you deserve the grief you get. If it was a foul you would have called on a player with 0 fouls it has to be a foul on a player with 4.

Let the comments fly.

Where in this thread did anyone say to not call a foul that should have been called?

If there's a foul, call it. If two players foul, determine which was first. At times, other factors may have to help you decide which was first.

Nowhere did anyone advocate not calling a 5th foul if one was warranted.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by tadams

Back to the topic.....

So I am new to basketball, have done a ton of baseball. The original post was do you treat the 5th foul differently. I read all the posts and watched this thread wonder. I have heard "it better be good", "nothing cheap", give it to someone else if you can. I understand game management is always an issue. Maybe basketball is different but come on guys have some balls. As an official you are there to bring fairness to the game and apply the rules. Any vetern official will say to a rookie that the most important thing to learn as an official is to be consistant. By not calling the foul you are intentionally being unfair to the other team. Shame on you. If your standards of fouls change as the game progresses you deserve the grief you get. If it was a foul you would have called on a player with 0 fouls it has to be a foul on a player with 4.

Let the comments fly.

tadams,

When taken in context, without reading any sinister intent into them, the statements that have been made are true.

The fifth foul is the one people will remember, and the one people will assign the greatest importance to, which means it is the one that will be on the video your assigner gets. So absolutely, the fifth foul should be a "good one".

Nobody is suggesting that we call the fifth foul any differently than the first four. The first four fouls should be "good ones" too! But the fifth one is the biggie. And if you are the sort of official who tries to focus or bear down more when its really important, that's the moment.

Now the argument about giving the fifth foul to another player. If A1 gets fouled by multiple defenders, and its the sort of play where at any other point in the game you would simply pick one of the culprits and give him the foul...there is a school of thought that says you should consciously pick the kid who doesn't already have four fouls. How does that equate to having no balls?

[tadams]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

tadams,

How does that equate to having no balls?

The promotion of fairness and treating the rules with respect means to be consistant. If a foul is committed then a foul needs to be called... dont be afraid if it is the fifth. Do what is right, not what is easy. In respect to not having any balls, just dont be timid into making the call. You will be much more apt to get yourself on the highlight film with the respective governing body by favoring one team then by making a tough call.


Please no one take offense to my statements, I am not trying to call anyone out. I am just sharing my perspective of the posts I have read and my philosophy on game management. In practice, as you all know relate, that third strike is tough to call when it is curve ball glancing a corner and it is the 4th hitter. Now the nineth hitter, no problem... nobody expects him to get on anyway.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by tadams

Please no one take offense to my statements, I am not trying to call anyone out. I am just sharing my perspective of the posts I have read and my philosophy on game management. In practice, as you all know relate, that third strike is tough to call when it is curve ball glancing a corner and it is the 4th hitter. Now the nineth hitter, no problem... nobody expects him to get on anyway.

It might be easier not to take offense if you didn't imply those you disagree with have no balls. And it's not about whether it's tough to call, it's about ensuring it's the right call.

The point is simple. The fifth foul is going to be more scrutinized, plain and simple, because it's the proverbial straw. While we always want to make sure we have the right call, and we never want to call a phantom foul; it's even more crucial on the final foul. Like it or not, it's how it is.

It's more like the difference between the first strike in the first inning on your proverbial cleanup hitter verses the third strike in the bottom of the 9th with two outs.

[tadams]

I am believing we are going to make the same call on the play at hand. Hopefully for me it is because I have been consistant in my application of the rules and for you that you feel ensured that it is the right call.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by tadams

Back to the topic.....

So I am new to basketball, have done a ton of baseball. The original post was do you treat the 5th foul differently. I read all the posts and watched this thread wonder. I have heard "it better be good", "nothing cheap", give it to someone else if you can.

Actually this is what the OP said. He did not suggest anything about treating it differently. He said do you take notice when a player gets their 4th foul. Here are his comments below.

Originally Posted by Clark Kent

I realize we won't find it anywhere in the manuals but how aware should we be of the player's and their foul situations? Do you take notice when a kid picks up his/her 4th not wanting to give them a cheap 5th? Or do you go about your modus operandi as if that is part of the game and a foul is a foul regardless of how many the kid has?

I assume I will get both answers here so for those who do take note how do you go about it? If the team has a scoreboard that indicates the player's fouls I have been able to take note there, however when there isn't a scoreboard with such features how do you wise sagacious veterans go about knowing?

Originally Posted by tadams

I understand game management is always an issue. Maybe basketball is different but come on guys have some balls. As an official you are there to bring fairness to the game and apply the rules. Any vetern official will say to a rookie that the most important thing to learn as an official is to be consistant. By not calling the foul you are intentionally being unfair to the other team. Shame on you. If your standards of fouls change as the game progresses you deserve the grief you get. If it was a foul you would have called on a player with 0 fouls it has to be a foul on a player with 4.

Let the comments fly.

This is why people are saying you guys are "implying" what was said. I do not recall saying anything about not calling a foul or calling it on the wrong player. I will say that there are often fouls where we have to choose a player. That involves judgment and if there is a situation where you do not know for sure, you pick one. How people come to that conclusion is always going to be different from one person to another. Some will say pick the least of the two that will not cause the most trouble. Others say pick the problem child. But I will say I am not calling a multiple foul that is for sure. And you and JAR have not shown any comment where someone said not to call a foul. Actually all they said was "make it be there." One thing I have figured out, what is considered a "good call" is based on a lot of judgment and personal feelings. What I may think is good, you may think is bad. There is never going to be a way to close the gap. Because I might think most of your fouls are terrible and even if you call the 5th foul to your liking, I may not like any of the other fouls, while you thought you were calling the right things. All of this is subjective and always will be on some level.

Peace

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by just another ref

What is hard for me to understand is when a guy contradicts himself in back to back posts, then, when asked about it, dismisses it all with another post like the one above, which says, basically, nothing.

You'll get used to it eventually.