double personal foul

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by hugheske44

I am sorry to be a pain but I am a trainer with an association and I know most of the people are under the assumption we go to alternate-possesion, I need to be very clear in explaining the correct way. ~~

BktBallRef is exactly right, POI simply means you go back to what you were doing before you were interrupted. This is absolutely not the same concept as the inadvertent whistle rule. The rule book uses a couple of phrases I find helpful in explaining the concept of POI: "play shall be resumed from the point of interruption" or "continued from the point of interruption." In other words, you were doing something, you got interrupted, now you're going to go back to what you were doing before the interruption.

Perhaps your explanation can be made clearer by breaking down POI like this: The POI definition (NFHS 4-36-2) tells us how to resume play in three specific situations.

Situation 1: The ball is live and clearly in team control. Play is resumed by giving the ball back to the team in control for a throw-in at the spot nearest where the ball was when the interruption occurred.

Situation 2: The ball is dead and we were about to make it live in one of the three possible ways (NFHS 6-1-1): a free throw, a throw-in or a *jump ball; or the ball had just become live via one of those three methods (NFHS 6-1-2), but the activity was interrupted before it ended (NFHS 4-20-3, 4-42-5, 4-28-3 respectively); or something just happened during play and by rule the next activity is a free throw or throw-in (e.g., foul, violation, made basket). Play is resumed by returning to that activity (free throw, throw-in or jump ball).

Situation 3: The Last Resort. The only-when-all-else-fails case. We are not in either Situation 1 or 2. There is no goal, infraction nor end of quarter/extra period is involved (other rules tell us how to resume play from those situations). Normally this happens when the ball is live, play is going on, but no team is in control. Play is resumed by an alternating-possession throw-in.

*I added the jump ball to this situation both to make it tie more naturally to NFHS 6-1-1, and also because it has obviously and clearly been accidentally omitted from 4-36-2. If the game is interrupted before or during a jump ball and the specified way to resume play is to return to the point of interruption, you have to return to the jump ball. There is no team control and therefore you cannot have a regular throw-in. The AP arrow has not been established and you cannot have an AP throw-in. You either jump it up, or you turn off the lights and go home. Unless you are BillyMac, in which case you flip a coin

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

POI simply means you go back to what you were doing before you were interrupted. This is absolutely not the same concept as the inadvertent whistle rule.

Ummm... isn't POI used following an accidental whistle?
So isn't the procedure exactly the same?

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Ummm... isn't POI used following an accidental whistle?
So isn't the procedure exactly the same?

The problem here is that too many officials get one aspect of the pre-POI inadvertent whistle rule (as I remember it) mixed up with POI. So when it's a throw-in that gets interrupted, they immediately respond with "no team control, go to the arrow." At least that's the only reason I can come up with why folks blow right past 4-36-2b in their zeal to get right to the darned arrow.

[mbyron]

We see this every season: "Is it POI or AP?" The question betrays a misunderstanding of POI that BITS and others have been trying to correct.

POI is a complex procedure for getting the ball back in play, and it includes as one of its possible procedures the AP arrow. In some cases, POI will invoke the AP arrow, in others it won't; the rule specifies which are which (not a judgment call).

Kudos to the OP for going to the rule book with this question, even though the approach is backwards. We don't want to look up all the times the AP is used and try to fit one to the situation given.

Instead, the order you want is: double foul -> POI -> definition of POI -> applicable provision. Since a throw-in was in progress when the DF was called, resume with the throw-in. Easy as pie.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Unless you are BillyMac, in which case you flip a coin.

By rule, I'm not allowed to do this at this point in time, but, someday ...

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

By rule, I'm not allowed to do this at this point in time, but, someday ...

Hope springs eternal

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Hope springs eternal

As you know, that sounds better in Latin.