Thoughts

[Clark Kent]

3 person game the other day. We had pre-gamed as a crew to allow Lead to have first crack at a block/charge call that is coming at them. I'm trail on a play that starts in my primary area as the girl (A1) cuts to the basket, the secondary defender (B2) slides over, establishes legal guarding position as A1 dishes off to A2 cutting to the basket. Knowing about what we pre-gamed I patiently wait as A1 crashes into B2 knocking them to the floor. I waited as long as I could when I blow my whistle and begin my prelim for a player control foul, when I hear my partner blow her whistle. I immediately drop my arm and hope that she has a PC foul too....and she does

How do you fellas typically pre game the block/charge calls? Do you think in these situations where the play originates from Trail's area is that his/her call or do you usually yield to Lead?

Should I have not blown on that play? I felt there had to be a whistle on it even late and felt I gave her ample time to respond.

Love to hear your thoughts.

Thanks

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Clark Kent

How do you fellas typically pre game the block/charge calls? Do you think in these situations where the play originates from Trail's area is that his/her call or do you usually yield to Lead?

Should I have not blown on that play? I felt there had to be a whistle on it even late and felt I gave her ample time to respond.

Love to hear your thoughts.

Thanks

I do not pre-game block/charge calls all by themselves. I talk about double whistles and who would have those calls in whose primary and why. And I do not agree with the philosophy that everything that comes at the Lead is their call. That might be OK in 2 Person, but can be a disaster in 3 Person. For one the Lead is basically by positioning and primary coverage area watching post play and the smallest area. If the ball comes to the Lead's area, it is possible they did not see everything. So I would not ever say they should take all those calls if we have a double whistle. They might have the call, but the crew needs to understand that the Center or Trail might have seen everything and the Lead saw the end only. Also the Center has a better angle on plays going to the basket from their side of the court and it is much better to have them make this call if the Lead never rotates over. The Lead is often looking at someone's back or angle is poor if they are calling across the court. I think you do need to discuss double whistles, but this is not just about block charges. Because you could have a travel before some contact. You could have a foul before a block/charge (push from behind on the ball handler). You need to prepare for more than this kind of call on a double whistle in my opinion.

Peace

[jeffpea]

It's great that you included this subject in the pre-game...unfortunately, not enough people do it.

The Lead is in the best postition to call the block/charge plays in the lane - especially since the defender involved will almost always be a secondary/help defender. The trail has a very poor view as to whether LGP has been established and as a result, the chances of you getting it correct are much lower than the Lead.

IMHO, it is better to stay off of this call. Let your partner(s) live and die with the calls in their area. During a TO or at half-time, ask what you partner saw and explain that there HAS to be a call on this play (either block or charge - the call doesn't matter...so long as there IS a call made).

A D1 Supervisor once shared w/ me his philosophy about your dilemna: stay in your area unless it is A) a non-basketball play (something flagrant or egregious) or, B) a game-changing, end-of-game-call......short of that, stay in your area.

[Back In The Saddle]

You've actually got quite a bit of complexity wrapped up in this one play.

A1 driving to the hole, starting from T's area. This is the "base case" that is usually decided in pre-game. It sounds like you pre-gamed that L has the dribbler, even though it originated from T's area.

B2 comes over as a secondary defender. Normally the official who does not have the dribbler normally has primary coverage on secondary defenders.

B2 establishes LGP. B2 becomes a new primary defender, possibly changing coverage once again. Depending on whether this happens immediately before contact, or there is time for the "primary" official to pick up the new defender, will normally determine who has primary coverage on any contact.

A1 dishes off then runs over B2. At this point, you no longer have a block/charge. You have a "pass and crash". This also needs to be pre-gamed. The usual options are L goes with the ball and T/C stays with the crash, and vice versa. If you discussed "pass and crash" in pre-game, then you will know which of you had primary coverage on this call. If you did not, then "somebody" has to make that call. And you are somebody.

[PIAA REF]

I am with Bits for most of this. I pregame with the crew that on a drive that is defended the official where the play came from has first crack at the call and should call it if there is something to be called. Lead should have that secondary defender that was coming from his/her primary coverage area. If this is the person who either fouled or was fouled then in my game it should be the lead calling this foul. But when the dust is cleared no matter who calls it if there is a foul, someone better get it!

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by jeffpea

...

A D1 Supervisor once shared w/ me his philosophy about your dilemna: stay in your area unless it is A) a non-basketball play (something flagrant or egregious) or, B) a game-changing, end-of-game-call......short of that, stay in your area.

This year NCAA rules committee wants whistles on crashes in the paint. Somebody needs to come get it.

In NFHS, do as the Romans.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Clark Kent

A1 dishes off to A2 cutting to the basket. (deleted) hope that she has a PC foul too....and she does

Oops.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Oops.

Oh, good catch Bob.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

You've actually got quite a bit of complexity wrapped up in this one play.

A1 driving to the hole, starting from T's area. This is the "base case" that is usually decided in pre-game. It sounds like you pre-gamed that L has the dribbler, even though it originated from T's area.

B2 comes over as a secondary defender. Normally the official who does not have the dribbler normally has primary coverage on secondary defenders.

B2 establishes LGP. B2 becomes a new primary defender, possibly changing coverage once again. Depending on whether this happens immediately before contact, or there is time for the "primary" official to pick up the new defender, will normally determine who has primary coverage on any contact.

A1 dishes off then runs over B2. At this point, you no longer have a block/charge. You have a "pass and crash". This also needs to be pre-gamed. The usual options are L goes with the ball and T/C stays with the crash, and vice versa. If you discussed "pass and crash" in pre-game, then you will know which of you had primary coverage on this call. If you did not, then "somebody" has to make that call. And you are somebody.

Very nice break-down of the sitch, BITS.

[jeffpea]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

This year NCAA rules committee wants whistles on crashes in the paint. Somebody needs to come get it.

You are correct. That somebody needs to be the lead. I am not coming to get that if I am Trail....if I'm Center and the block/charge is on my side of the lane, I'll probably get it.

I'll stay in my area and trust that you can officiate your area. Your messes are yours to deal with and clean up. If you prove to me over the course of the game that you cannot handle it, then I'll come in and assert myself when needed (only in the last few minutes of a game).

However, I'll wack a coach or player from anywhere on the floor if you can't handle them after you've blown a play.....

[Clark Kent]

I agree with the breakdown, and with the logic that there needs to be a whistle on a play with players going to the floor....hence the reasoning in my head that I came in with a late whistle, then yielded to her when I heard her whistle blow because of what we pre-gamed.

Thanks for the advice. I'll remember it all for the next pregame!

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by jeffpea

You are correct. That somebody needs to be the lead. I am not coming to get that if I am Trail....if I'm Center and the block/charge is on my side of the lane, I'll probably get it.

I'll stay in my area and trust that you can officiate your area. Your messes are yours to deal with and clean up. If you prove to me over the course of the game that you cannot handle it, then I'll come in and assert myself when needed (only in the last few minutes of a game).

However, I'll wack a coach or player from anywhere on the floor if you can't handle them after you've blown a play.....

I'm doing what my supervisors want done or what was pre-gamed with the crew. I'm not going to live by any hard and fast rule that I'm not coming to get it from the trail.

And personally I would rather my partner come from the trail to get a crash I missed in front of me than for a partner to butt his nose into my deallings with a coach.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by jeffpea

You are correct. That somebody needs to be the lead. I am not coming to get that if I am Trail....if I'm Center and the block/charge is on my side of the lane, I'll probably get it.

I'll stay in my area and trust that you can officiate your area. Your messes are yours to deal with and clean up. If you prove to me over the course of the game that you cannot handle it, then I'll come in and assert myself when needed (only in the last few minutes of a game).

However, I'll wack a coach or player from anywhere on the floor if you can't handle them after you've blown a play.....

So your partner misses a call badly. Probably realizes it and is letting the coach vent a little and you are going to come across the court to make it worse? This doesn't seem like great game management to me. If you want to steal a call, seems like you should steal the first one.
________
Laguna Bay Condos

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by youngump

So your partner misses a call badly. Probably realizes it and is letting the coach vent a little and you are going to come across the court to make it worse? This doesn't seem like great game management to me. If you want to steal a call, seems like you should steal the first one.

Do not confuse good game management with allowing a coach to act and behave anyway they like. If a coach is acting goofy, anyone can take action. Of course you might give your partner an opportunity to handle the situation, but that is not written in stone as you are suggesting.

Peace

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by jeffpea

You are correct. That somebody needs to be the lead. I am not coming to get that if I am Trail....if I'm Center and the block/charge is on my side of the lane, I'll probably get it.

I'll stay in my area and trust that you can officiate your area. Your messes are yours to deal with and clean up. If you prove to me over the course of the game that you cannot handle it, then I'll come in and assert myself when needed (only in the last few minutes of a game).

However, I'll wack a coach or player from anywhere on the floor if you can't handle them after you've blown a play.....

So the drive starts in YOUR area and goes straight to the basket, there is a big crash, and you are going to stand there and look at the L and wait for him/her to make the call??? If I'm your evaluator at that game, and this play happens and there is no whistle on it - you are going down with the L. You sure as heck better be willing to step in and take this call if it doesn't come from the L.

And whacking a coach just to prove you can is not showing how good an official someone is. Getting the whistles on plays like this so that the coach doesn't go sideways on us is a much better indicator of how good someone is.