The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 02, 2002, 10:50am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Just north of hell
Posts: 9,250
Send a message via AIM to Dan_ref
A1 in paint receives a pass, turns, makes his move around B1 to the basket and goes high for a dunk. B1 stays with him, going as high & gets a hand on the ball. B1 also gets some side to side body contact, not a lot but it's there. No real arm contact. A1 misses the dunk. Call or no call? A1 makes the dunk. Call or no call? How about if A1 layed it up instead of dunked? (For you nitpickers held ball or 3 seconds is not a consideration. )

Similar play: A1 on a breakaway drives in for a layup. B1 is following closely, B1 gets a hand on the ball as
A1 is in the air for the layup, followed by obvious body contact. The layup goes in. Call or no call? The layup does not go in. Call or no call?
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 02, 2002, 11:13am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 1,051
Quote:
Originally posted by Dan_ref
A1 in paint receives a pass, turns, makes his move around B1 to the basket and goes high for a dunk. B1 stays with him, going as high & gets a hand on the ball. B1 also gets some side to side body contact, not a lot but it's there. No real arm contact. A1 misses the dunk. Call or no call? A1 makes the dunk. Call or no call? How about if A1 layed it up instead of dunked? (For you nitpickers held ball or 3 seconds is not a consideration. )

If it goes in, no call

If not, I guess there was a disadvantage....
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 02, 2002, 11:40am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 388
On the dunk play, I wouldn't have a call unless the kid got major body contact. If the kids are playin' above the rim, that tells me they probably can live with a little bit of bumpin'.
__________________
Dan R.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 02, 2002, 12:06pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Posts: 336
1st sitch: No call. If there was a foul, you would have said so...unless you're rationalizing a missed call!

Agree with Danvrapp. If the kid is dunking, there's gonna be some contact that is initiated by the offense, especially if the defender is in decent position, as you described.

2nd sitch: definitely a foul. especially on a break away, offense in the air already...automatic.
__________________
Trust your partners, but trust yourself more. Training, experience and intuition are your currency.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 02, 2002, 12:15pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Western Mass.
Posts: 9,105
Send a message via AIM to ChuckElias
Hmmmmm, let me guess what happened at camp last night. . .

Quote:
Originally posted by Dan_ref
A1 in paint receives a pass, turns, makes his move around B1 to the basket and goes high for a dunk. B1 stays with him, going as high & gets a hand on the ball. B1 also gets some side to side body contact, not a lot
Both of these plays probably need to be seen before we can really make a judgment. But just from your description, I think I probably do not have a call on this one. If they're both jumping fairly straight up and you get some slight contact on the body, I think I let them play on. If, however, the contact is hard enough that A1 loses his balance (or if his body is turned so that he no longer has a clean look at the dunk, regardless of whether it goes in or not) or is knocked down, then I think I have to call a foul there. But without seeing it, it's hard to say. So, just from the description, I have no call.

Quote:
Similar play: A1 on a breakaway drives in for a layup. B1 is following closely, B1 gets a hand on the ball as A1 is in the air for the layup, followed by obvious body contact.
Obvious body contact is kind of hard to ignore, but again, it depends on the result of the contact. If the contact causes the shooter to adjust his shot or causes the shooter to fall, then that is probably a foul. But if the contact is slight and doesn't affect the shooter, then I'd let it go. Basically. . . no harm, no foul. Profound, huh? I think, just from Dan's description, that I would call a foul. It sounds like the contact was enough to put the shooter at a disadvantage.

Chuck
__________________
Any NCAA rules and interpretations in this post are relevant for men's games only!
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 02, 2002, 12:32pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the offseason.
Posts: 12,260
On the dunk attempt, I have no call on either. Sounds like the contact is pretty insignificant. With that, the player probably would have missed the dunk anyway----Ever hear a coach say, "My player doesn't miss like that, he must have been fouled."---Well, we all know that players sometimes grossly miss wide open shots.

I have either enough contact for the foul or not. On the layup, I would be more likely to have a foul...easier to affect the momentum of the shooter and get an advantage.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 02, 2002, 12:36pm
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hell
Posts: 20,211
Quote:
Originally posted by Dan_ref
A1 in paint receives a pass, turns, makes his move around B1 to the basket and goes high for a dunk. B1 stays with him, going as high & gets a hand on the ball. B1 also gets some side to side body contact, not a lot but it's there. No real arm contact. A1 misses the dunk. Call or no call? A1 makes the dunk. Call or no call? How about if A1 layed it up instead of dunked? (For you nitpickers held ball or 3 seconds is not a consideration. )

Similar play: A1 on a breakaway drives in for a layup. B1 is following closely, B1 gets a hand on the ball as
A1 is in the air for the layup, followed by obvious body contact. The layup goes in. Call or no call? The layup does not go in. Call or no call?
For both the dunk and the lay-up,I usually try to let it go when the basket is good and the contact is fairly minimal,like you described.If there's side-to-side contact and the dunk or lay-up is missed,if the contact moves the shooter visibly in any way,I'll call it.If the shooter isn't moved,I have to judge whether the contact affected the shooter or not to have a foul.Any doubts at all,I let it go.Naturally,the key is to hold up on your whistle to see the finish of the play.
As for contact on the breakaway after a good block,it doesn't really matter to me if the ball went in or not.I want to protect the shooter because he's pretty vulnerable up there,but I don't want to penalise incidental contact after a good defensive play.That's what makes this one of the tougher calls to make,I think.If he knocks the shooter down or into a basket support(or wall),I'll usually call it.If not,it's a crap shoot.I just have to make up my own mind as to whether the contact was excessive enough to warrant a foul being called.
JMO.


[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Aug 2nd, 2002 at 12:40 PM]
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 02, 2002, 01:14pm
certified Hot Mom tester
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: only in my own mind, such as it is
Posts: 12,918
Post

Here's my cop-out answer for the week. I don't think you can take one judgment play out of context and decide if you should make a call or not. You have to put it in the context of what you had already established as foul contact during the entire game. If you had been calling this much contact all night, then it's a foul. If not, then not.

Of course, this could be your first contact situation of the game. Then - you're going to have to make a split second decision that will affect the contact calls for the rest of the game.

That's why we get the big bucks.
__________________
Yom HaShoah
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 02, 2002, 02:48pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 101
I agree with most everyone that i would not have a foul at all in the first situation, even if the ball did not go in, but i would have one in the second situation, even if the ball did go in.

my feeling is that contact occurring from behind or from the side on a fastbreak can potentially become very ugly and to have a no-call when a player flails to the ground can send a VERY bad message.

bottom line - if a player's speed, quickness, or balance is impacted by illegal contact we need to have a foul, if it's not, we might be able to pass.

jake
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 02, 2002, 05:10pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 14,616
1- No foul.

2- Foul.

Hey, if the fans can call'em without seeing'em, so can I.
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 02, 2002, 05:55pm
9 times
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: St. George, UT
Posts: 777
Bobby Dibler, a former FF offical and current supervisor for the Mtn West Conf, preaches the 80/20 rule. If the block is 80% ball and 20% body, it is a good block. Based on your description of the play...good block. Let kids block shots, it is good for the game.
__________________
Get it right!

1999 (2x), 2006, 2008, 2010, 2012, 2014, 2016, 2019
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 02, 2002, 06:26pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 9,466
Send a message via AIM to rainmaker
Well, I almost never agree with stripes about basketball, but he gave me some very good advice to use on my trip, so I suppose he can't be all wrong.

Still, I disagree with him here. I think this play is very easy if you're reffing the defense. It doesn't matter what the percentage of contact is, it doesnt' matter whether the shot goes in, it doesn't matter about advantage or disadvantage. Did the defender go straight up, or slightly backwards? If so, he's legal, no matter how much of the other stuff there may be. If he moved out of legal position, such as toward the shooter, or sideways into the path of the shooter, then it's a foul, even if the contact is only 10% body. I learned this lesson fairly early, and although I've still got a lot of things to work on, REFFING THE DEFENSE is not one of them. It makes a lot of calls so, so easy.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Sat Aug 03, 2002, 10:50am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Just north of hell
Posts: 9,250
Send a message via AIM to Dan_ref
Thanks all who replied. Yes, the first play was something I
saw & whistled as C during my camp, A1 took the layup and
missed. I blew after it was clear the ball wasn't going in
and thought I had a good, solid call. I was later told to
pass on these, reward great defensive play, somewhat similar
to Stripes' 80/20 rule. The second play is something we
have all seen so I thought I would throw it in. I agree
with JR this is one of the toughest plays to referee because
the defense is working hard but makes obvious contact that
has no bearing on the play, so you're left in a situation where someone's gonna be unhappy for a good reason no matter what you do.

Juulie, check your email.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 05, 2002, 09:34am
9 times
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: St. George, UT
Posts: 777
Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker
Well, I almost never agree with stripes about basketball, but he gave me some very good advice to use on my trip, so I suppose he can't be all wrong.


Good to know that I am not always wrong. Now, please let my wife know.

Quote:
Still, I disagree with him here. I think this play is very easy if you're reffing the defense. It doesn't matter what the percentage of contact is, it doesnt' matter whether the shot goes in, it doesn't matter about advantage or disadvantage. Did the defender go straight up, or slightly backwards? If so, he's legal, no matter how much of the other stuff there may be. If he moved out of legal position, such as toward the shooter, or sideways into the path of the shooter, then it's a foul, even if the contact is only 10% body. I learned this lesson fairly early, and although I've still got a lot of things to work on, REFFING THE DEFENSE is not one of them. It makes a lot of calls so, so easy.
Juulie--you don't really disagree with me here, but we might interpret things a little differently. You cannot referee the 80/20 without concentrating on the defense. If a defender is not in a legal position, all bets are off, but too often (especially at the HS levels) if there is any body contact on a block, a foul is called and, IMO, we do the defender a disservice when he has played good defense. We all know this is true because we all (myself included) have done it and given a defender a "cheap" foul.

If a defender goes and gets the ball and gets a little body, is that good defense or a foul? By strict interpretation, it is probably a foul, but is that a good call? IMO, no. Let kids block shots. As you move up the officiating food chain, consistently making calls like this will get you fired.

Reffing the defense is the key, but knowing how to interpret what happens will separate you from the masses.
__________________
Get it right!

1999 (2x), 2006, 2008, 2010, 2012, 2014, 2016, 2019
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 05, 2002, 11:25am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Glendale, AZ
Posts: 2,672
Quote:
Originally posted by stripes
Bobby Dibler, a former FF offical and current supervisor for the Mtn West Conf, preaches the 80/20 rule. If the block is 80% ball and 20% body, it is a good block. Based on your description of the play...good block. Let kids block shots, it is good for the game.
This was basically my initial reaction after reading the original post. Thinking about it a little more, I probably got it from a buddy of mine that went to Dibler's camp several years ago. It's one of those plays you have to see to call, but if a defender gets to the ball first and body contact is minimal (judgement), I've got a no-call no matter what happens with the shot.
__________________
It's what you learn after you think you know it all that's important!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:30am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1