Call or no call?

[Dan_ref]

A1 in paint receives a pass, turns, makes his move around B1 to the basket and goes high for a dunk. B1 stays with him, going as high & gets a hand on the ball. B1 also gets some side to side body contact, not a lot but it's there. No real arm contact. A1 misses the dunk. Call or no call? A1 makes the dunk. Call or no call? How about if A1 layed it up instead of dunked? (For you nitpickers held ball or 3 seconds is not a consideration. )

Similar play: A1 on a breakaway drives in for a layup. B1 is following closely, B1 gets a hand on the ball as
A1 is in the air for the layup, followed by obvious body contact. The layup goes in. Call or no call? The layup does not go in. Call or no call?

[Brian Watson]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
A1 in paint receives a pass, turns, makes his move around B1 to the basket and goes high for a dunk. B1 stays with him, going as high & gets a hand on the ball. B1 also gets some side to side body contact, not a lot but it's there. No real arm contact. A1 misses the dunk. Call or no call? A1 makes the dunk. Call or no call? How about if A1 layed it up instead of dunked? (For you nitpickers held ball or 3 seconds is not a consideration. )

If it goes in, no call

If not, I guess there was a disadvantage....

[Danvrapp]

On the dunk play, I wouldn't have a call unless the kid got major body contact. If the kids are playin' above the rim, that tells me they probably can live with a little bit of bumpin'.

[pizanno]

1st sitch: No call. If there was a foul, you would have said so...unless you're rationalizing a missed call!

Agree with Danvrapp. If the kid is dunking, there's gonna be some contact that is initiated by the offense, especially if the defender is in decent position, as you described.

2nd sitch: definitely a foul. especially on a break away, offense in the air already...automatic.

[ChuckElias]

Hmmmmm, let me guess what happened at camp last night. . .

Originally posted by Dan_ref
A1 in paint receives a pass, turns, makes his move around B1 to the basket and goes high for a dunk. B1 stays with him, going as high & gets a hand on the ball. B1 also gets some side to side body contact, not a lot

Both of these plays probably need to be seen before we can really make a judgment. But just from your description, I think I probably do not have a call on this one. If they're both jumping fairly straight up and you get some slight contact on the body, I think I let them play on. If, however, the contact is hard enough that A1 loses his balance (or if his body is turned so that he no longer has a clean look at the dunk, regardless of whether it goes in or not) or is knocked down, then I think I have to call a foul there. But without seeing it, it's hard to say. So, just from the description, I have no call.

Similar play: A1 on a breakaway drives in for a layup. B1 is following closely, B1 gets a hand on the ball as A1 is in the air for the layup, followed by obvious body contact.

Obvious body contact is kind of hard to ignore, but again, it depends on the result of the contact. If the contact causes the shooter to adjust his shot or causes the shooter to fall, then that is probably a foul. But if the contact is slight and doesn't affect the shooter, then I'd let it go. Basically. . . no harm, no foul. Profound, huh? I think, just from Dan's description, that I would call a foul. It sounds like the contact was enough to put the shooter at a disadvantage.

Chuck

[Camron Rust]

On the dunk attempt, I have no call on either. Sounds like the contact is pretty insignificant. With that, the player probably would have missed the dunk anyway----Ever hear a coach say, "My player doesn't miss like that, he must have been fouled."---Well, we all know that players sometimes grossly miss wide open shots.

I have either enough contact for the foul or not. On the layup, I would be more likely to have a foul...easier to affect the momentum of the shooter and get an advantage.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
A1 in paint receives a pass, turns, makes his move around B1 to the basket and goes high for a dunk. B1 stays with him, going as high & gets a hand on the ball. B1 also gets some side to side body contact, not a lot but it's there. No real arm contact. A1 misses the dunk. Call or no call? A1 makes the dunk. Call or no call? How about if A1 layed it up instead of dunked? (For you nitpickers held ball or 3 seconds is not a consideration. )

Similar play: A1 on a breakaway drives in for a layup. B1 is following closely, B1 gets a hand on the ball as
A1 is in the air for the layup, followed by obvious body contact. The layup goes in. Call or no call? The layup does not go in. Call or no call?

For both the dunk and the lay-up,I usually try to let it go when the basket is good and the contact is fairly minimal,like you described.If there's side-to-side contact and the dunk or lay-up is missed,if the contact moves the shooter visibly in any way,I'll call it.If the shooter isn't moved,I have to judge whether the contact affected the shooter or not to have a foul.Any doubts at all,I let it go.Naturally,the key is to hold up on your whistle to see the finish of the play.
As for contact on the breakaway after a good block,it doesn't really matter to me if the ball went in or not.I want to protect the shooter because he's pretty vulnerable up there,but I don't want to penalise incidental contact after a good defensive play.That's what makes this one of the tougher calls to make,I think.If he knocks the shooter down or into a basket support(or wall),I'll usually call it.If not,it's a crap shoot.I just have to make up my own mind as to whether the contact was excessive enough to warrant a foul being called.
JMO.


[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Aug 2nd, 2002 at 12:40 PM]

[Mark Padgett]

Here's my cop-out answer for the week. I don't think you can take one judgment play out of context and decide if you should make a call or not. You have to put it in the context of what you had already established as foul contact during the entire game. If you had been calling this much contact all night, then it's a foul. If not, then not.

Of course, this could be your first contact situation of the game. Then - you're going to have to make a split second decision that will affect the contact calls for the rest of the game.

That's why we get the big bucks.

[112448]

I agree with most everyone that i would not have a foul at all in the first situation, even if the ball did not go in, but i would have one in the second situation, even if the ball did go in.

my feeling is that contact occurring from behind or from the side on a fastbreak can potentially become very ugly and to have a no-call when a player flails to the ground can send a VERY bad message.

bottom line - if a player's speed, quickness, or balance is impacted by illegal contact we need to have a foul, if it's not, we might be able to pass.

jake

[BktBallRef]

1- No foul.

2- Foul.

Hey, if the fans can call'em without seeing'em, so can I.

[stripes]

Bobby Dibler, a former FF offical and current supervisor for the Mtn West Conf, preaches the 80/20 rule. If the block is 80% ball and 20% body, it is a good block. Based on your description of the play...good block. Let kids block shots, it is good for the game.

[rainmaker]

Well, I almost never agree with stripes about basketball, but he gave me some very good advice to use on my trip, so I suppose he can't be all wrong.

Still, I disagree with him here. I think this play is very easy if you're reffing the defense. It doesn't matter what the percentage of contact is, it doesnt' matter whether the shot goes in, it doesn't matter about advantage or disadvantage. Did the defender go straight up, or slightly backwards? If so, he's legal, no matter how much of the other stuff there may be. If he moved out of legal position, such as toward the shooter, or sideways into the path of the shooter, then it's a foul, even if the contact is only 10% body. I learned this lesson fairly early, and although I've still got a lot of things to work on, REFFING THE DEFENSE is not one of them. It makes a lot of calls so, so easy.

[Dan_ref]

Thanks all who replied. Yes, the first play was something I
saw & whistled as C during my camp, A1 took the layup and
missed. I blew after it was clear the ball wasn't going in
and thought I had a good, solid call. I was later told to
pass on these, reward great defensive play, somewhat similar
to Stripes' 80/20 rule. The second play is something we
have all seen so I thought I would throw it in. I agree
with JR this is one of the toughest plays to referee because
the defense is working hard but makes obvious contact that
has no bearing on the play, so you're left in a situation where someone's gonna be unhappy for a good reason no matter what you do.

Juulie, check your email.

[stripes]

Originally posted by rainmaker
Well, I almost never agree with stripes about basketball, but he gave me some very good advice to use on my trip, so I suppose he can't be all wrong.

Good to know that I am not always wrong. Now, please let my wife know.

Still, I disagree with him here. I think this play is very easy if you're reffing the defense. It doesn't matter what the percentage of contact is, it doesnt' matter whether the shot goes in, it doesn't matter about advantage or disadvantage. Did the defender go straight up, or slightly backwards? If so, he's legal, no matter how much of the other stuff there may be. If he moved out of legal position, such as toward the shooter, or sideways into the path of the shooter, then it's a foul, even if the contact is only 10% body. I learned this lesson fairly early, and although I've still got a lot of things to work on, REFFING THE DEFENSE is not one of them. It makes a lot of calls so, so easy.

Juulie--you don't really disagree with me here, but we might interpret things a little differently. You cannot referee the 80/20 without concentrating on the defense. If a defender is not in a legal position, all bets are off, but too often (especially at the HS levels) if there is any body contact on a block, a foul is called and, IMO, we do the defender a disservice when he has played good defense. We all know this is true because we all (myself included) have done it and given a defender a "cheap" foul.

If a defender goes and gets the ball and gets a little body, is that good defense or a foul? By strict interpretation, it is probably a foul, but is that a good call? IMO, no. Let kids block shots. As you move up the officiating food chain, consistently making calls like this will get you fired.

Reffing the defense is the key, but knowing how to interpret what happens will separate you from the masses.

[Andy]

Originally posted by stripes
Bobby Dibler, a former FF offical and current supervisor for the Mtn West Conf, preaches the 80/20 rule. If the block is 80% ball and 20% body, it is a good block. Based on your description of the play...good block. Let kids block shots, it is good for the game.

This was basically my initial reaction after reading the original post. Thinking about it a little more, I probably got it from a buddy of mine that went to Dibler's camp several years ago. It's one of those plays you have to see to call, but if a defender gets to the ball first and body contact is minimal (judgement), I've got a no-call no matter what happens with the shot.