Throw-in

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by slow whistle

twist...A1 intentionally sets the ball down within reach of the throw-in area say three feet away. B1 reaches through and grabs it...T on B1 right? could you have unsporting T on A1? granted B1 shouldn't take the bait, but this is obviously unusual and A1 intentionally would have done so to draw B1 into a tech.....this obviously for all of the coaches who roam this board

Using that logic, in another situation, you'd have to call a T on A1 who does a basic pump fake hoping B1 fouls him.

Caveat Emptor.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by fullor30

Using that logic, in another situation, you'd have to call a T on A1 who does a basic pump fake hoping B1 fouls him.

Caveat Emptor.

Agreed, the onus is on the defender not to reach across.

[slow whistle]

You don't see an angle by the definition of unsporting foul?

"...noncontact technical foul which consists of unfair, unethical, dishonorable conduct or any behavior not in accordance with the spirit of fair play"

One could argue that play is not "in the spirit of fair play"....I believe a tech either way could be defended...

[slow whistle]

I could even think of a situation where a coach might attempt to employ this strategy...down 5 with 1 second left in the game....you aren't getting two shots off in one second obviously, but if you can draw team B into a tech then you could put two on the board with no time coming off...now you have the ball at half court, down 3 with one second left...you have a helluva a lot better chance that B1 will take the bait than you do scoring 5 pts in 1 second otherwise...now I agree that B1 should know better than to reach through, but to me an obvious attempt to draw an opponent into a technical foul should be penalized as unsporting and I believe the definition of unsporting foul allows you that latitude...

[Adam]

Sure, you could defend it if you had to; but I think it's a stretch. As fullor30 points out, you could do the same with a pump fake. You going to call a T at the start of a quarter when the offense lines up at the wrong end of the court with the hopes of luring the defense to the wrong end?

You might be able to stretch the meaning to include this play, but I would expect I'd have a very hard time justifying it to my assignors.

Just because it may be bush league doesn't mean it's a T.

[slow whistle]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Sure, you could defend it if you had to; but I think it's a stretch. As fullor30 points out, you could do the same with a pump fake. You going to call a T at the start of a quarter when the offense lines up at the wrong end of the court with the hopes of luring the defense to the wrong end?

You might be able to stretch the meaning to include this play, but I would expect I'd have a very hard time justifying it to my assignors.

Just because it may be bush league doesn't mean it's a T.

Completely understand which is why I said I think you could justify either...however, the NF has chosen to address only certain situations where you have an action/reaction situation. For instance player along the lane line fakes and causes opponent to enter, you penalize the faker. Of course the Fed cannot possibly (thankfully!) rule on every possible scenario so official judgement is needed, but when an action draws an opponent into a technical foul in the scenario I described, I think they have just raised the level to the point where you could easily go with unsporting...that said would I want to be the one to call it? NO!

[Adam]

Originally Posted by slow whistle

Completely understand which is why I said I think you could justify either...however, the NF has chosen to address only certain situations where you have an action/reaction situation. For instance player along the lane line fakes and causes opponent to enter, you penalize the faker. Of course the Fed cannot possibly (thankfully!) rule on every possible scenario so official judgement is needed, but when an action draws an opponent into a technical foul in the scenario I described, I think they have just raised the level to the point where you could easily go with unsporting...that said would I want to be the one to call it? NO!

I was thinking about that rule, but it was originally inclusive of only the shooter when the players along the lane could enter upon the release. It made more sense because players were rightly starting their movement off of the shooter's motion.

With the rebounders, the same concept applies, since they are all trying to prevent each other from getting the ball. They are constantly having to react to one another, and a defender stepping in to fake has very little risk with a good shooter, but potentially great reward as the penalty for a double violation here is really only against the offense.

Neither of these applies to a player setting the ball on the floor during a throwin. That's the same as a player holding the ball in front of the defender but on the OOB side of the plane.

[slow whistle]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I was thinking about that rule, but it was originally inclusive of only the shooter when the players along the lane could enter upon the release. It made more sense because players were rightly starting their movement off of the shooter's motion.

With the rebounders, the same concept applies, since they are all trying to prevent each other from getting the ball. They are constantly having to react to one another, and a defender stepping in to fake has very little risk with a good shooter, but potentially great reward as the penalty for a double violation here is really only against the offense.

Neither of these applies to a player setting the ball on the floor during a throwin. That's the same as a player holding the ball in front of the defender but on the OOB side of the plane.

Very true, difference would be though that you would have a damn hard time determining intent if someone is just holding the ball in front of them....they could just be holding it waiting for someone to come open...esp since if they put it across the line the defender can legally grab it. However, if they put it on the floor the intent is pretty clear...

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Just because it may be bush league doesn't mean it's a T.

Agree. Deceptive ≠ unsporting.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Agree. Deceptive ≠ unsporting.

But, deceptive, in some cases, can be considered unsporting.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by slow whistle

Very true, difference would be though that you would have a damn hard time determining intent if someone is just holding the ball in front of them....they could just be holding it waiting for someone to come open...esp since if they put it across the line the defender can legally grab it. However, if they put it on the floor the intent is pretty clear...

Not necessarily. He's more likely to disguise it by setting it down, wiping his hands on his uniform, then bending down to pick it back up. He only has 5 seconds, after all, and if he makes his intent obvious then there's no way the defense falls for it.

Frankly, if his intent is that obvious, there's no deceipt. And if the defense falls for this when it's obvious, that's on them.

[slow whistle]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Not necessarily. He's more likely to disguise it by setting it down, wiping his hands on his uniform, then bending down to pick it back up. He only has 5 seconds, after all, and if he makes his intent obvious then there's no way the defense falls for it.

Frankly, if his intent is that obvious, there's no deceipt. And if the defense falls for this when it's obvious, that's on them.

Obvious to an official does not necessarily mean obivous to a player who may or may not know (should know) that it is a tech if they reach across and grab the ball. I'm not trying to give B1 a free pass, all I'm saying is that if A1 attempts to goad B1 into a technical foul and I am certain that is what he/she did, then I think I have pretty solid ground for unsporting tech....if someone passed on that and tech'd B1 instead there is certainly good rules standing for that also...so now I'm done...finally...

[Adam]

Originally Posted by slow whistle

Obvious to an official does not necessarily mean obivous to a player who may or may not know (should know) that it is a tech if they reach across and grab the ball. I'm not trying to give B1 a free pass, all I'm saying is that if A1 attempts to goad B1 into a technical foul and I am certain that is what he/she did, then I think I have pretty solid ground for unsporting tech....if someone passed on that and tech'd B1 instead there is certainly good rules standing for that also...so now I'm done...finally...

While I disagree, I think this has been a good discussion. I think the rules standing for this call is weak at best.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Based on what rule? I can see calling it when it's so far away from the spot that A1 would have to leave the spot to retrieve it, but if it's just bouncing a foot or two outside the spot when B1 grabs it, I'm sticking B with the violation.

That's what I meant, but unfortunately not what I wrote.

[CoachP]

Originally Posted by slow whistle

I could even think of a situation where a coach might attempt to employ this strategy...down 5 with 1 second left in the game....you aren't getting two shots off in one second obviously, but if you can draw team B into a tech then you could put two on the board with no time coming off...now you have the ball at half court, down 3 with one second left...you have a helluva a lot better chance that B1 will take the bait than you do scoring 5 pts in 1 second otherwise...now I agree that B1 should know better than to reach through, but to me an obvious attempt to draw an opponent into a technical foul should be penalized as unsporting and I believe the definition of unsporting foul allows you that latitude...

If I am up 5 (4 for that matter) with one second, my players are nowhere near the throw in.

We had 2 FTs with 6 seconds left up by 4 . I cleared the lane and had my players stand inbounds by the bench. Not for the reason of the topic, but because I have varsity girls and I've seen plenty of enough dumb things happen. Clock runs out before/if I needed to throw in.