Substitution

[curtstrouth]

Is it permissable to withdraw a player before the clock starts following his or her substitution into the game. I can't find it in th rule book.

[JRutledge]

You might want to be a little specific. Yes you can and in the main case I can think of you have a Technical foul as a result. But I am not sure exactly when you are talking about. The game starts when the ball leaves the hand of the Referee on a Jump ball or if you are shooting Ts to start a game you could bring in a sub to shoot those FTs. I am just not sure if that is what you are referring to.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by curtstrouth

Is it permissable to withdraw a player before the clock starts following his or her substitution into the game. I can't find it in th rule book.

Hmmm, where have I seen that question before?

Let me ask you this...

The rule book establishes the limits under which the game can/must be played. If nothing exists to restrict a specific action, that action is legal.

Everything you need to know about substitutions is under Rule 3-3. In particular, have a look at Case 3.3.3a

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You might want to be a little specific. Yes you can and in the main case I can think of you have a Technical foul as a result. But I am not sure exactly when you are talking about. The game starts when the ball leaves the hand of the Referee on a Jump ball or if you are shooting Ts to start a game you could bring in a sub to shoot those FTs. I am just not sure if that is what you are referring to.

Peace

I think you took a wrong turn at 4 or 5 posts ago. Your answers today seem unusually off in left field. Time to hit the reset button and start the day over!

The question was not about the start of the game. It was can a player be replaced if they were just substituted into the game...even if the clock hasn't run.

The question is directly from the NFHS exam.

[Amesman]

Camron, agreed that shows an instance that pertains to the exam question, giving the clue to the answer.

But what if a coach simply changes his/her mind?

[BillyMac]

You are where you were until you get where you're going. (player location)
Must have something in and nothing out. (returning inbounds)
Last to touch, first to touch. (backcourt)
Fumble, dribble, fumble. (legal)
Must sit a tick, don’t have to play a tick. (substitution)
There's a difference between being tripped, and tripping. (foul, no foul)
Over the back isn't, on the back is. (no foul, foul)
Accidental isn't always incidental. (contact)
Pass, shoot, start a dribble, or request a timeout. (player with ball on floor)
White, black, beige, color similar to predominant jersey color. (headbands, wristbands)
When in doubt, don't be. (call it only if you’re sure)
Lead gets the pass and trail gets the crash. (lead and trail responsibility)
When the ball is dead, we must be alive. (timeout mechanics)
Answer questions, not statements. (communication with coaches)
Bounce when you can, hand when you must. (throw-in)
Don’t be a ball watcher. (officiate your primary)
Anticipate the play, not the foul. (be patient)
Be slow to blow the whistle. (be patient)
You can always put air into a whistle, but you cannot take it out. (patient whistle)

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I think you took a wrong turn at 4 or 5 posts ago. Your answers today seem unusually off in left field. Time to hit the reset button and start the day over!

The question was not about the start of the game. It was can a player be replaced if they were just substituted into the game...even if the clock hasn't run.

The question is directly from the NFHS exam.

A lot of things can happen before a game. That is why I asked the questions. And if all you are looking for is an answer to a test question (which is why I never like these tests as gauges for rules knowledge), then look up the answer and get a generic answer.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Amesman

Camron, agreed that shows an instance that pertains to the exam question, giving the clue to the answer.

But what if a coach simply changes his/her mind?

It doesn't matter why the coach decides to pull the player, there's nothing that says he can't do it.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

A lot of things can happen before a game. That is why I asked the questions. And if all you are looking for is an answer to a test question (which is why I never like these tests as gauges for rules knowledge), then look up the answer and get a generic answer.

Peace

It wouldn't make a difference either way, once the T is called to start the game, the game has begun and substitutions can be made. Right?

BTW, nice job channeling your inner Jurassic.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

It wouldn't make a difference either way, once the T is called to start the game, the game has begun and substitutions can be made. Right?

NO. The game doesn't begin with the assessing of the technical foul. It begins when the ball is made live for the administration of the first FT.
The only permissible substitutions prior to that FT is to insert a shooter or to replace an injured or ill starter.

Once that first FT is attempted, then substitutions may be made, except any starter who was pulled cannot re-enter. Those individuals must sit a tick.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

NO. The game doesn't begin with the assessing of the technical foul. It begins when the ball is made live for the administration of the first FT.
The only permissible substitutions prior to that FT is to insert a shooter or to replace an injured or ill starter.

Once that first FT is attempted, then substitutions may be made, except any starter who was pulled cannot re-enter. Those individuals must sit a tick.

Not so fast there, my knowledgeable neighbor to the west.

My reading of the rules is that there are no substitutions prior to the start of play, even for injury, illness, or to shoot a T. Those conditions, plus "illegal equipment or apparel, etc." require "changing a designated starter". (NFHS 3-2-2, NCAA 3-3.2 reads equivalently)

The difference is important because if it's not substitution, then the original designated starter does not need to sit a tick. He could sub in for the shooter as soon as the free throws are completed.

However, if the coach decided to bring in a second player off the bench to shoot the second free throw, the game has begun at that point and that shooter would be a substitute and the player he replaces must sit a tick.

Edited to add ---------
I hate when this happens. While the rule book clearly designates this action as "changing a designated starter", the case book uses different language.

NFHS 3.2 SITUATION B "A1, who is designated as a starter 10 minutes prior to the scheduled starting time of the game, becomes ill or is injured before the game starts. RULING: A1 may be replaced without penalty as illness or injury is considered to be an extenuating and unavoidable situation which permits a substitution. A1 would be permitted to enter the game later. (10-1-2a)"

A.R. 39 reads equivalently.

So the rule book and case book use very different terminology to describe the same event. The rule book language implies that the replacement becomes a designated starter, otherwise maintaining the status quo; the case book language casts the event as a substitution. Is it just imprecise language in the case book? It would be helpful if the case discussed whether the replaced player must sit a tick.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

NO. The game doesn't begin with the assessing of the technical foul. It begins when the ball is made live for the administration of the first FT.
The only permissible substitutions prior to that FT is to insert a shooter or to replace an injured or ill starter.

Once that first FT is attempted, then substitutions may be made, except any starter who was pulled cannot re-enter. Those individuals must sit a tick.

gotcha

[wanja]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The rule book establishes the limits under which the game can/must be played. If nothing exists to restrict a specific action, that action is legal.

Everything you need to know about substitutions is under Rule 3-3. In particular, have a look at Case 3.3.3a

Well said. Just remember:

You (the substitute) don't have to play a play, but you (the replaced player) have to sit a tic.

Courtesy of Edgar Cartotto, my favorite basketball officiating instructor.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by curtstrouth

Is it permissable to withdraw a player before the clock starts following his or her substitution into the game. I can't find it in th rule book.

Do you have any questions that aren't on the exam?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Not so fast there, my knowledgeable neighbor to the west.

My reading of the rules is that there are no substitutions prior to the start of play, even for injury, illness, or to shoot a T. Those conditions, plus "illegal equipment or apparel, etc." require "changing a designated starter". (NFHS 3-2-2, NCAA 3-3.2 reads equivalently)

The difference is important because if it's not substitution, then the original designated starter does not need to sit a tick. He could sub in for the shooter as soon as the free throws are completed.

However, if the coach decided to bring in a second player off the bench to shoot the second free throw, the game has begun at that point and that shooter would be a substitute and the player he replaces must sit a tick.

Edited to add ---------
I hate when this happens. While the rule book clearly designates this action as "changing a designated starter", the case book uses different language.

NFHS 3.2 SITUATION B "A1, who is designated as a starter 10 minutes prior to the scheduled starting time of the game, becomes ill or is injured before the game starts. RULING: A1 may be replaced without penalty as illness or injury is considered to be an extenuating and unavoidable situation which permits a substitution. A1 would be permitted to enter the game later. (10-1-2a)"

A.R. 39 reads equivalently.

So the rule book and case book use very different terminology to describe the same event. The rule book language implies that the replacement becomes a designated starter, otherwise maintaining the status quo; the case book language casts the event as a substitution. Is it just imprecise language in the case book? It would be helpful if the case discussed whether the replaced player must sit a tick.

Hey, BITS, I actually wrote a rather lengthy post on this several years ago, arguing, as you do, that the wording of the rule would permit a changed starter to not have the substitution restriction imposed upon him. The NFHS committee disagreed and published a ruling in the Simplified & Illustrated book stating that a starter replaced for a technical foul FT shooter must sit a tick and cannot re-enter until time has come off the clock. That is the source for the definitive answer. I don't care for their interpretation, but understand that that is how they want the rule applied. To me the team member was never in the game, so how can his "re-entry" be restricted? Oh well...