The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 28, 2009, 03:54pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 20
Substitution

Is it permissable to withdraw a player before the clock starts following his or her substitution into the game. I can't find it in th rule book.
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 28, 2009, 03:58pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 28,771
You might want to be a little specific. Yes you can and in the main case I can think of you have a Technical foul as a result. But I am not sure exactly when you are talking about. The game starts when the ball leaves the hand of the Referee on a Jump ball or if you are shooting Ts to start a game you could bring in a sub to shoot those FTs. I am just not sure if that is what you are referring to.

Peace
__________________
"When the phone does not ring, the assignor is calling."
--Black

Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 28, 2009, 04:01pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the offseason.
Posts: 11,698
Quote:
Originally Posted by curtstrouth View Post
Is it permissable to withdraw a player before the clock starts following his or her substitution into the game. I can't find it in th rule book.
Hmmm, where have I seen that question before?

Let me ask you this...

The rule book establishes the limits under which the game can/must be played. If nothing exists to restrict a specific action, that action is legal.

Everything you need to know about substitutions is under Rule 3-3. In particular, have a look at Case 3.3.3a
__________________
Owner/Developer of RefTown.com
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 28, 2009, 04:04pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the offseason.
Posts: 11,698
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
You might want to be a little specific. Yes you can and in the main case I can think of you have a Technical foul as a result. But I am not sure exactly when you are talking about. The game starts when the ball leaves the hand of the Referee on a Jump ball or if you are shooting Ts to start a game you could bring in a sub to shoot those FTs. I am just not sure if that is what you are referring to.

Peace
I think you took a wrong turn at 4 or 5 posts ago. Your answers today seem unusually off in left field. Time to hit the reset button and start the day over!

The question was not about the start of the game. It was can a player be replaced if they were just substituted into the game...even if the clock hasn't run.

The question is directly from the NFHS exam.
__________________
Owner/Developer of RefTown.com
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 28, 2009, 04:12pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 579
Camron, agreed that shows an instance that pertains to the exam question, giving the clue to the answer.

But what if a coach simply changes his/her mind?
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 28, 2009, 04:54pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 17,674
Short Reminders ...

You are where you were until you get where you're going. (player location)
Must have something in and nothing out. (returning inbounds)
Last to touch, first to touch. (backcourt)
Fumble, dribble, fumble. (legal)
Must sit a tick, don’t have to play a tick. (substitution)
There's a difference between being tripped, and tripping. (foul, no foul)
Over the back isn't, on the back is. (no foul, foul)
Accidental isn't always incidental. (contact)
Pass, shoot, start a dribble, or request a timeout. (player with ball on floor)
White, black, beige, color similar to predominant jersey color. (headbands, wristbands)
When in doubt, don't be. (call it only if you’re sure)
Lead gets the pass and trail gets the crash. (lead and trail responsibility)
When the ball is dead, we must be alive. (timeout mechanics)
Answer questions, not statements. (communication with coaches)
Bounce when you can, hand when you must. (throw-in)
Don’t be a ball watcher. (officiate your primary)
Anticipate the play, not the foul. (be patient)
Be slow to blow the whistle. (be patient)
You can always put air into a whistle, but you cannot take it out. (patient whistle)
__________________
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 28, 2009, 04:59pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 28,771
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
I think you took a wrong turn at 4 or 5 posts ago. Your answers today seem unusually off in left field. Time to hit the reset button and start the day over!

The question was not about the start of the game. It was can a player be replaced if they were just substituted into the game...even if the clock hasn't run.

The question is directly from the NFHS exam.
A lot of things can happen before a game. That is why I asked the questions. And if all you are looking for is an answer to a test question (which is why I never like these tests as gauges for rules knowledge), then look up the answer and get a generic answer.

Peace
__________________
"When the phone does not ring, the assignor is calling."
--Black

Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 28, 2009, 05:56pm
Adam's Avatar
Keeper of the HAMMER
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MST
Posts: 27,191
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amesman View Post
Camron, agreed that shows an instance that pertains to the exam question, giving the clue to the answer.

But what if a coach simply changes his/her mind?
It doesn't matter why the coach decides to pull the player, there's nothing that says he can't do it.
__________________
Sprinkles are for winners.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 28, 2009, 05:57pm
Adam's Avatar
Keeper of the HAMMER
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MST
Posts: 27,191
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
A lot of things can happen before a game. That is why I asked the questions. And if all you are looking for is an answer to a test question (which is why I never like these tests as gauges for rules knowledge), then look up the answer and get a generic answer.

Peace
It wouldn't make a difference either way, once the T is called to start the game, the game has begun and substitutions can be made. Right?

BTW, nice job channeling your inner Jurassic.
__________________
Sprinkles are for winners.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 28, 2009, 06:05pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 14,444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
It wouldn't make a difference either way, once the T is called to start the game, the game has begun and substitutions can be made. Right?
NO. The game doesn't begin with the assessing of the technical foul. It begins when the ball is made live for the administration of the first FT.
The only permissible substitutions prior to that FT is to insert a shooter or to replace an injured or ill starter.

Once that first FT is attempted, then substitutions may be made, except any starter who was pulled cannot re-enter. Those individuals must sit a tick.
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 28, 2009, 06:27pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: In a little pink house
Posts: 5,289
Send a message via AIM to Back In The Saddle Send a message via MSN to Back In The Saddle Send a message via Yahoo to Back In The Saddle
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
NO. The game doesn't begin with the assessing of the technical foul. It begins when the ball is made live for the administration of the first FT.
The only permissible substitutions prior to that FT is to insert a shooter or to replace an injured or ill starter.

Once that first FT is attempted, then substitutions may be made, except any starter who was pulled cannot re-enter. Those individuals must sit a tick.
Not so fast there, my knowledgeable neighbor to the west.

My reading of the rules is that there are no substitutions prior to the start of play, even for injury, illness, or to shoot a T. Those conditions, plus "illegal equipment or apparel, etc." require "changing a designated starter". (NFHS 3-2-2, NCAA 3-3.2 reads equivalently)

The difference is important because if it's not substitution, then the original designated starter does not need to sit a tick. He could sub in for the shooter as soon as the free throws are completed.

However, if the coach decided to bring in a second player off the bench to shoot the second free throw, the game has begun at that point and that shooter would be a substitute and the player he replaces must sit a tick.

Edited to add ---------
I hate when this happens. While the rule book clearly designates this action as "changing a designated starter", the case book uses different language.

NFHS 3.2 SITUATION B "A1, who is designated as a starter 10 minutes prior to the scheduled starting time of the game, becomes ill or is injured before the game starts. RULING: A1 may be replaced without penalty as illness or injury is considered to be an extenuating and unavoidable situation which permits a substitution. A1 would be permitted to enter the game later. (10-1-2a)"

A.R. 39 reads equivalently.

So the rule book and case book use very different terminology to describe the same event. The rule book language implies that the replacement becomes a designated starter, otherwise maintaining the status quo; the case book language casts the event as a substitution. Is it just imprecise language in the case book? It would be helpful if the case discussed whether the replaced player must sit a tick.
__________________
"It is not enough to do your best; you must know what to do, and then do your best." - W. Edwards Deming

Last edited by Back In The Saddle; Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 06:44pm.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 28, 2009, 06:27pm
Adam's Avatar
Keeper of the HAMMER
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MST
Posts: 27,191
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
NO. The game doesn't begin with the assessing of the technical foul. It begins when the ball is made live for the administration of the first FT.
The only permissible substitutions prior to that FT is to insert a shooter or to replace an injured or ill starter.

Once that first FT is attempted, then substitutions may be made, except any starter who was pulled cannot re-enter. Those individuals must sit a tick.
gotcha
__________________
Sprinkles are for winners.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 28, 2009, 06:37pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
The rule book establishes the limits under which the game can/must be played. If nothing exists to restrict a specific action, that action is legal.

Everything you need to know about substitutions is under Rule 3-3. In particular, have a look at Case 3.3.3a
Well said. Just remember:

You (the substitute) don't have to play a play, but you (the replaced player) have to sit a tic.

Courtesy of Edgar Cartotto, my favorite basketball officiating instructor.
__________________
Developer of phillyref.com -- local, national, global officiating information
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 28, 2009, 11:16pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 14,613
Quote:
Originally Posted by curtstrouth View Post
Is it permissable to withdraw a player before the clock starts following his or her substitution into the game. I can't find it in th rule book.
Do you have any questions that aren't on the exam?
__________________
"...as cool as the other side of the pillow." - Stuart Scott

"You should never be proud of doing the right thing." - Dean Smith
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 29, 2009, 05:40am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 14,444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle View Post
Not so fast there, my knowledgeable neighbor to the west.

My reading of the rules is that there are no substitutions prior to the start of play, even for injury, illness, or to shoot a T. Those conditions, plus "illegal equipment or apparel, etc." require "changing a designated starter". (NFHS 3-2-2, NCAA 3-3.2 reads equivalently)

The difference is important because if it's not substitution, then the original designated starter does not need to sit a tick. He could sub in for the shooter as soon as the free throws are completed.

However, if the coach decided to bring in a second player off the bench to shoot the second free throw, the game has begun at that point and that shooter would be a substitute and the player he replaces must sit a tick.

Edited to add ---------
I hate when this happens. While the rule book clearly designates this action as "changing a designated starter", the case book uses different language.

NFHS 3.2 SITUATION B "A1, who is designated as a starter 10 minutes prior to the scheduled starting time of the game, becomes ill or is injured before the game starts. RULING: A1 may be replaced without penalty as illness or injury is considered to be an extenuating and unavoidable situation which permits a substitution. A1 would be permitted to enter the game later. (10-1-2a)"

A.R. 39 reads equivalently.

So the rule book and case book use very different terminology to describe the same event. The rule book language implies that the replacement becomes a designated starter, otherwise maintaining the status quo; the case book language casts the event as a substitution. Is it just imprecise language in the case book? It would be helpful if the case discussed whether the replaced player must sit a tick.
Hey, BITS, I actually wrote a rather lengthy post on this several years ago, arguing, as you do, that the wording of the rule would permit a changed starter to not have the substitution restriction imposed upon him. The NFHS committee disagreed and published a ruling in the Simplified & Illustrated book stating that a starter replaced for a technical foul FT shooter must sit a tick and cannot re-enter until time has come off the clock. That is the source for the definitive answer. I don't care for their interpretation, but understand that that is how they want the rule applied. To me the team member was never in the game, so how can his "re-entry" be restricted? Oh well...
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
substitution (NF) PSU213 Football 3 Sun Oct 21, 2007 02:02pm
Substitution waltjp Football 1 Sat Oct 22, 2005 10:55pm
Substitution! In for #71... BigRygg Football 2 Sun Sep 25, 2005 02:11pm
Substitution bluedevil_coach Football 3 Sat Sep 25, 2004 08:47pm
Substitution Nyjets Football 4 Wed Sep 08, 2004 09:56am


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:21pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1