Substitution

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I think you took a wrong turn at 4 or 5 posts ago. Your answers today seem unusually off in left field. Time to hit the reset button and start the day over!

The question was not about the start of the game. It was can a player be replaced if they were just substituted into the game...even if the clock hasn't run.

The question is directly from the NFHS exam.

A lot of things can happen before a game. That is why I asked the questions. And if all you are looking for is an answer to a test question (which is why I never like these tests as gauges for rules knowledge), then look up the answer and get a generic answer.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

A lot of things can happen before a game. That is why I asked the questions. And if all you are looking for is an answer to a test question (which is why I never like these tests as gauges for rules knowledge), then look up the answer and get a generic answer.

Peace

It wouldn't make a difference either way, once the T is called to start the game, the game has begun and substitutions can be made. Right?

BTW, nice job channeling your inner Jurassic.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

It wouldn't make a difference either way, once the T is called to start the game, the game has begun and substitutions can be made. Right?

NO. The game doesn't begin with the assessing of the technical foul. It begins when the ball is made live for the administration of the first FT.
The only permissible substitutions prior to that FT is to insert a shooter or to replace an injured or ill starter.

Once that first FT is attempted, then substitutions may be made, except any starter who was pulled cannot re-enter. Those individuals must sit a tick.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

NO. The game doesn't begin with the assessing of the technical foul. It begins when the ball is made live for the administration of the first FT.
The only permissible substitutions prior to that FT is to insert a shooter or to replace an injured or ill starter.

Once that first FT is attempted, then substitutions may be made, except any starter who was pulled cannot re-enter. Those individuals must sit a tick.

Not so fast there, my knowledgeable neighbor to the west.

My reading of the rules is that there are no substitutions prior to the start of play, even for injury, illness, or to shoot a T. Those conditions, plus "illegal equipment or apparel, etc." require "changing a designated starter". (NFHS 3-2-2, NCAA 3-3.2 reads equivalently)

The difference is important because if it's not substitution, then the original designated starter does not need to sit a tick. He could sub in for the shooter as soon as the free throws are completed.

However, if the coach decided to bring in a second player off the bench to shoot the second free throw, the game has begun at that point and that shooter would be a substitute and the player he replaces must sit a tick.

Edited to add ---------
I hate when this happens. While the rule book clearly designates this action as "changing a designated starter", the case book uses different language.

NFHS 3.2 SITUATION B "A1, who is designated as a starter 10 minutes prior to the scheduled starting time of the game, becomes ill or is injured before the game starts. RULING: A1 may be replaced without penalty as illness or injury is considered to be an extenuating and unavoidable situation which permits a substitution. A1 would be permitted to enter the game later. (10-1-2a)"

A.R. 39 reads equivalently.

So the rule book and case book use very different terminology to describe the same event. The rule book language implies that the replacement becomes a designated starter, otherwise maintaining the status quo; the case book language casts the event as a substitution. Is it just imprecise language in the case book? It would be helpful if the case discussed whether the replaced player must sit a tick.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Not so fast there, my knowledgeable neighbor to the west.

My reading of the rules is that there are no substitutions prior to the start of play, even for injury, illness, or to shoot a T. Those conditions, plus "illegal equipment or apparel, etc." require "changing a designated starter". (NFHS 3-2-2, NCAA 3-3.2 reads equivalently)

The difference is important because if it's not substitution, then the original designated starter does not need to sit a tick. He could sub in for the shooter as soon as the free throws are completed.

However, if the coach decided to bring in a second player off the bench to shoot the second free throw, the game has begun at that point and that shooter would be a substitute and the player he replaces must sit a tick.

Edited to add ---------
I hate when this happens. While the rule book clearly designates this action as "changing a designated starter", the case book uses different language.

NFHS 3.2 SITUATION B "A1, who is designated as a starter 10 minutes prior to the scheduled starting time of the game, becomes ill or is injured before the game starts. RULING: A1 may be replaced without penalty as illness or injury is considered to be an extenuating and unavoidable situation which permits a substitution. A1 would be permitted to enter the game later. (10-1-2a)"

A.R. 39 reads equivalently.

So the rule book and case book use very different terminology to describe the same event. The rule book language implies that the replacement becomes a designated starter, otherwise maintaining the status quo; the case book language casts the event as a substitution. Is it just imprecise language in the case book? It would be helpful if the case discussed whether the replaced player must sit a tick.

Hey, BITS, I actually wrote a rather lengthy post on this several years ago, arguing, as you do, that the wording of the rule would permit a changed starter to not have the substitution restriction imposed upon him. The NFHS committee disagreed and published a ruling in the Simplified & Illustrated book stating that a starter replaced for a technical foul FT shooter must sit a tick and cannot re-enter until time has come off the clock. That is the source for the definitive answer. I don't care for their interpretation, but understand that that is how they want the rule applied. To me the team member was never in the game, so how can his "re-entry" be restricted? Oh well...

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

NO. The game doesn't begin with the assessing of the technical foul. It begins when the ball is made live for the administration of the first FT.
The only permissible substitutions prior to that FT is to insert a shooter or to replace an injured or ill starter.

Once that first FT is attempted, then substitutions may be made, except any starter who was pulled cannot re-enter. Those individuals must sit a tick.

gotcha

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

It wouldn't make a difference either way, once the T is called to start the game, the game has begun and substitutions can be made. Right?

BTW, nice job channeling your inner Jurassic.

You can sub in players to shoot technical FTs so you could "technically" sub in a player to do that who is obviously not a starter.

The problem is if you are answering a question on the NF test, there is a heading that makes it clear what they are looking for and this question alone has many elements to it. Not everything is black and white as people want to make it sometimes, if that makes me like JR, then so be it.

Peace