Is It a Foul?

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by Smitty

What are you talking about? Who said I would say that to a coach? Only in your mind did that conversation occur. I didn't even say I would automatically call it a foul. Hell, it could possibly even be an intentional foul depending on how hard the kid poked the other kid. I'm just saying I wouldn't just pass on it and say "knock it off" if the contact was enough to warrant a foul.

Smitty, I don't want to be argumentative here. The terminology "hinder the shooter's concentration" was introduced earlier in the thread. I was just pointing out I personally would not use that, and only that, terminology to explain it to a coach as it may sound, as you said, "stupid."

[Indianaref]

Originally Posted by SAK

I know that this is changing a little bit but, what happens if the shooter is tapped on the lower leg? Is there a difference in what you would call?

When he "tapped" the shooter's leg, do you know how much pressure per square inch he applied?

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by grunewar

Smitty, I don't want to be argumentative here. The terminology "hinder the shooter's concentration" was introduced earlier in the thread. I was just pointing out I personally would not use that, and only that, terminology to explain it to a coach as it may sound, as you said, "stupid."

And I never said I would ever say that to a coach. I was describing the intent of that act. It is not a basketball act. It is a weak move to make up for a lack of real defense. If the kid pokes the shooter with enough contact to warrant me blowing the whistle, that's an easy call for me. I can easily tell a coach that the contact from the poke in the stomach was a foul.

[shawtydoowop]

As the player who called the foul, I saw it as a play that was outside of the realms of legal defense. Of course, in pick-up we tend to do things that are not within the rules of organized basketball but...I didn't think it was a mystery that this technically is a foul. I wouldn't normally call it but I don't think there should be a big mystery if it is called.

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by Smitty

And I never said I would ever say that to a coach. I was describing the intent of that act. It is not a basketball act. It is a weak move to make up for a lack of real defense. If the kid pokes the shooter with enough contact to warrant me blowing the whistle, that's an easy call for me. I can easily tell a coach that the contact from the poke in the stomach was a foul.

Agreed.

[Adam]

I'm with Smitty. On this one, I'm going to have a much lower threshold for deciding if the contact affected the shot.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by grunewar

Agreed.

Thank you.

I'm sorry to have been so defensive, but I have a pet peeve for people who use ridiculous words when describing things to coaches. The fact that you accused me of doing so got me all riled up.

[Scratch85]

Originally Posted by Smitty

Intentional contact that is intended to do nothing more than alter an airborn shooter's shot is getting more attention from me than incidental contact.

I'm not saying I will always call it a foul, but I am more inclined to than not if there is contact.

This is a good statement. I think most agree that intentional contact and incidental contact will be scrutinized differently.

[fullor30]

I had meant to bring this topic up over beers with a few guys and forgot about it. Had this happen over summer with sloppy AAU ball. Again, like anything else, advantage/disadvantage. In my case the defender clearly was looking to disrupt the shot by subtley giving a discrete poke to the stomach. I did not toot, I told him I saw what he was doing and to stop it. He did.

I put it in the hand check category. Out front, in the open, I'm probably calling it, a mosh pit down low, probably not.

[Vinski]

It’s all pretty much a had to be there situation. If the defender taps/pokes the shooter after the shot is released, probably a no call. If he kind of just taps him as a course of his body’s movement settling into a defensive position, it’s probably incidental as long as it didn’t interfere with the shot.
If, however, the defender is standing there and as the shooter goes up, the defender lift his hand, sticks out his finger and then pokes him in the belly button while the shooter is in the air, I would call the foul. What would be the proper mechanic for tickling?

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Vinski

What would be the proper mechanic for tickling?

I think this is it.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Vinski

It’s all pretty much a had to be there situation. If the defender taps/pokes the shooter after the shot is released, probably a no call. If he kind of just taps him as a course of his body’s movement settling into a defensive position, it’s probably incidental as long as it didn’t interfere with the shot.
If, however, the defender is standing there and as the shooter goes up, the defender lift his hand, sticks out his finger and then pokes him in the belly button while the shooter is in the air, I would call the foul. What would be the proper mechanic for tickling?

I think this breaks it down pretty well. I would only add that the purpose of this tactic is often not for that shot, but to cause the shooter to exercise caution on future shots. I was taught this technique by an older player when I was in school, with the rationale that the officials were most likely looking at the hands (yeah, I know, but I was 15) and the shooter would instinctively flinch the next time whether you actually poked him or not.

[Overnbach]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I think this breaks it down pretty well. I would only add that the purpose of this tactic is often not for that shot, but to cause the shooter to exercise caution on future shots. I was taught this technique by an older player when I was in school, with the rationale that the officials were most likely looking at the hands (yeah, I know, but I was 15) and the shooter would instinctively flinch the next time whether you actually poked him or not.

I have a friend who does this to me quite often in pickup games. I am sad to say that it is pretty effective on me. I do start looking for it, and I sometimes flinch a bit. I'd like to see it called, if it is intentional.

Wouldn't you have a call if an opponent said, "Choke," just before the release of a free throw. Seems like a similar intent. (Eric does that, too.)

[Scratch85]

Originally Posted by Overnbach

Wouldn't you have a call if an opponent said, "Choke," just before the release of a free throw. Seems like a similar intent. (Eric does that, too.)

That is a completely different situation (disconcertion) and by rule does not apply here. Intent or otherwise.

This is post #29 on this thread, "Is It a foul". Apparently, officiating basketball is not as easy or "cut and dried" as some think.

Thanks a lot shawty.

It appears Eric is a pain in the ***!

[Mregor]

Used to see this quite often a few years back, but not much lately. There's only one reason for this intentional act of a slight jab to the abdomen, to gain an advantage. Why else do they do it? It makes the shooter flinch and then maybe in their head waiting for it on other shots. It's a foul. As I remember, didn't need to call it often, usually stops right away.