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[Philz]

Everything you said VINSKI is correct. They only thing different is this Ref was actually running this short league that ment nothing....no play offs, championship stats and so forth. We were going by NFHS rules but I guess he figured to just wave that one. It pissed me off and I probably won't do anymore of those games. In fact one of the coaches I called the Tech on I probably should have just ejected as he ran out on the court all the way accross the other side to get in my face and protest what he thought was a traveling that wasn't called.

Originally Posted by Philz

In fact one of the coaches I called the Tech on I probably should have just ejected as he ran out on the court all the way accross the other side to get in my face and protest what he thought was a traveling that wasn't called.

For a traveling violation?? Yeah if not tossed then a stern T & a very short leash the rest of the way.

Although I could see a bang-bang & done, for coming onto the court & disrespectly addressing an official.

[Vinski]

Originally Posted by Philz

It pissed me off and I probably won't do anymore of those games. In fact one of the coaches I called the Tech on I probably should have just ejected as he ran out on the court all the way accross the other side to get in my face and protest what he thought was a traveling that wasn't called.

I understand that it was as you call a “short” league (I think) that you were working. But in my opinion, those games can be the toughest as far as sportsmanship is concerned. You’ve got to nip it in the bud right away. If not it makes for a tough night. However, if you are “required” to take that kind of cr@p as per your partner/assigner, I would never do one of those games again, just like you mentioned, and let him know why. Letting a coach come clear across the court to get in your face is absolute garbage. Allowing that sort of activity to go un-penalized is setting up the next officials that do his games for the same sort thing. Not to mention the horrible role model he is being allowed to be in front of his kids.
Don’t go looking for trouble and try and head it off early with good game management, but don’t take that sort of thing at any level. Good luck to you.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Ref Ump Welsch

Coin toss determined who took the ball out of bounds at the division line to start the game. No center jump.

This is what I would imagine it would be like to officiate a basketball game in heaven

[IowaMike]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

This is what I would imagine it would be like to officiate a basketball game in heaven

Not so heavenly when you screwed up and forgot to bring a coin out with you. I hated that rule and was glad when they got rid of it. Girls were capable of starting the game with a jump ball in 49 other states, why not Iowa? I like the jump ball to start the game, I think it lends a certain degree of anticipation to the game. The old coin toss really created problems when the Iowa girls would play an Illinois team. I live right on the Iowa/Illinois border and those games were humorous, watching the Iowa girls trying to figure out how to set up for the jump ball if I was working in Illinois, or the look of disbelief on the faces of the Illinois girls when we did the coin flip in pregame in Iowa.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by IowaMike

Not so heavenly when you screwed up and forgot to bring a coin out with you. I hated that rule and was glad when they got rid of it. Girls were capable of starting the game with a jump ball in 49 other states, why not Iowa? I like the jump ball to start the game, I think it lends a certain degree of anticipation to the game. The old coin toss really created problems when the Iowa girls would play an Illinois team. I live right on the Iowa/Illinois border and those games were humorous, watching the Iowa girls trying to figure out how to set up for the jump ball if I was working in Illinois, or the look of disbelief on the faces of the Illinois girls when we did the coin flip in pregame in Iowa.

A coin flip to start the game? That just ain't basketball.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

A coin flip to start the game? That just ain't basketball.

You're right. In fact, let's have a jump ball to start each quarter. And, let's have some more jump balls to determine who gets the ball in all held ball situations. And, why limit the jump ball to the center circle. Let's have jump balls at either the division line, or the foul lines, whichever is closer. And why limit jump balls to only the taller players, let's allow all players to get involved. And maybe we can have jump balls after five second closely guarded situations. Now that's real old fashioned basketball. In fact, maybe we should have jump balls after each made basket?

[amusedofficial]

Why is allowing athleticism and competition determine the first possession of the game so bad?

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by amusedofficial

Why is allowing athleticism and competition determine the first possession of the game so bad?

You have to forgive Billy. He's never been the same since that double overtime freshman girls thriller back in 1971 where he and his partner set a new record for the most jump balls in Land of Steady Habits history in a single game. It's a form of PTSD.

BTW, I searched through his state's online game report database. Other "Unusual occurrences/items of note" he wrote, "I have just used up all the jump balls that are in me. I am unable to ever toss a jump ball again. My partner will have to do it from now on."

Truly tragic.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by amusedofficial

Why is allowing athleticism and competition determine the first possession of the game so bad?

Just a pet peeve of mine. I don't go all the way back to when there were jump balls after each basket, you'll have to ask Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. about those days, but I do go back to before the alternating possession arrow, when we had jump balls to start each period, for each held ball situation, and even for closely guarded situations, at three different circles on the court, with a lot of different players involved. Back then, because we had so many jump balls, coaches actually had jump ball plays, depending on which circle, and the probability of winning, or losing the tap. These coaches knew the various rules regarding jump balls, and taught these rules to their players. Officials, again, because there were so many jump balls, knew all the jump ball rules like the back of their hand, and good officials actually spent time practicing tosses by tossing the ball up through a basket and net.

Now that we have only one jump ball a game, plus overtimes, coaches don't really know the rules, and since they don't know the rules, their players don't know the rules. And likewise with officials. In my opinion, officials, myself included, don't know the various jump ball rules as well now as they did before the advent of the alternating possession. And these rules aren't easy. Jumpers, players on the circle, players off the circle. Official ready to toss, official tosses, ball is tapped. Open spots on the circle, filled spots on the circle. Moving onto the circle, moving off of the circle. Years ago I often heard our interpreter remind us to practice tossing up through a basket, now I can't remember the last time an interpreter gave us that suggestion.

Today, it seems like the two tallest kids get to jump, a few shorter kids match up on the circle, and a few more match up off the circle. The official throws up the toss, not with the same skill that I saw many years ago, and the other official stands back and hopes that nothing "odd", or "weird", happens, that is, "odd" enough, or "weird" enough, to be recognized as a violation, and I mean immediately recognized as a violation, not after a long tap is made, and a layup is made, in other words, a violation called by hesitant official, with a slow whistle.

We went from jump balls after every basket; to jump balls to start each period, for each held ball situation, and for closely guarded situations, at three different circles on the court; to a single jump ball at the center circle to start the game and an alternating possession after that. I think that the next logical progression is to start the game with a coin toss, like they do in soccer, football, and probably a few other sports. Or let the visitors get to go on offense first, like in baseball, or softball.

Again, just my opinion. I will certainly be pleased to listen to opposing views.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

I am unable to ever toss a jump ball again. My partner will have to do it from now on.

That's why the IAABO manual allows the referee to designate the person who will toss. It doesn't have to be the referee, it could be the umpire. Is this also true in the NFHS manual?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by IowaMike

Not so heavenly when you screwed up and forgot to bring a coin out with you.

How difficult could it be to remember to bring a coin? Would you forget to bring a whistle? Wait a minute. I did that once. Never mind. How do I delete this post? New fangled computers!