[NFHS Rules] Sequence of events

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Not quite. Team A has six players participating. A violation, or a foul is called. During the dead ball time immediately following the violation, or the foul, Team A notices that is has an extra player on the court and pulls that player off the court. At that time, as the sixth player is walking off the court, the infraction is recognized by the official, before the ball becomes live. At this time it is not too late to penalize for the sixth player. If the ball had become live after this situation, and then the table yelled to the officials that there were six Team A players participating a few seconds ago, then it would be too late to penalize.

Billy, I disagree with this. I dont' see what rule basis you have for calling it if you didn't actually see A6 participating. The rule is very clear that it must be discovered while being violated in order to be penalized. There's no wiggle room.

Especially, in your scenario, where the official doesn't notice it until he sees A6 walking off the court. You do not know positively how he got on the court nor how long he's been there. It's too late.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Billy, I disagree with this. I don't see what rule basis you have for calling it if you didn't actually see A6 participating. The rule is very clear that it must be discovered while being violated in order to be penalized. There's no wiggle room. Especially, in your scenario, where the official doesn't notice it until he sees A6 walking off the court. You do not know positively how he got on the court nor how long he's been there. It's too late.

Good point. Let me clarify. What I'm trying to say is that this infraction may be called during live ball activity, or during dead ball activity, as long as the officials are sure that six players participated. The officials don't have to know how he got on the court, or how long he participated, as long as they are certain that he participated. Once the ball becomes live with five participants, it's too late to penalize. How's that?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Good point. Let me clarify. What I'm trying to say is that this infraction may be called during live ball activity, or during dead ball activity, as long as the officials are sure that six players participated. The officials don't have to know how he got on the court, or how long he participated, as long as they are certain that he participated. Once the ball becomes live with five participants, it's too late to penalize. How's that?

I'll have to think about that, but the rule says "discovered while being violated," so I have to think that unless you actually see the participation, you cannot penalize.

Now, that's not to say I wouldn't call this if, just after a violation whistle by my partner, I count and see 6 standing on the floor and know for a fact that no one came on after his whistle.

And, while common sense would dictate that there are time constraints on how long you can hold off on penalizing, consider the following scenario:

1. A has 6 players during live play.
2. U1 whistles an OOB violation against the defense just as U2 realizes the 6th player is playing.
3. A6 sits down immediately.
4. U1 puts the ball in play.
5. U2 gets his head out of his a$$ and blows his whistle to get that 6 player T.

Common sense says one thing, but what rule says it's too late?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

1. A has 6 players during live play.
2. U1 whistles an OOB violation against the defense just as U2 realizes the 6th player is playing.
3. A6 sits down immediately.
4. U1 puts the ball in play.
5. U2 gets his head out of his a$$ and blows his whistle to get that 6 player T.
Common sense says one thing, but what rule says it's too late?

No rule that know of, just an interpretation: 10.2.2 SITUATION: During a live ball and with the clock running, substitute A6 enters the court. RULING: A technical foul is charged if recognized by an official before the ball becomes live following the first dead ball.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

No rule that know of, just an interpretation: 10.2.2 SITUATION: During a live ball and with the clock running, substitute A6 enters the court. RULING: A technical foul is charged if recognized by an official before the ball becomes live following the first dead ball.

I do remember reading this once before! Now I see where you were coming from, but it only pertains to that sitch. I still think it's useless. If, for some reason we don't count our players & make eye contact prior to the ball becoming live, if 6 are still participating, we hit 'em live while being observed.
What was the purpose of adding that one with so many others unsolved mysteries...

Honestly, I believe the sound official/crew would get that when the 6th player steps on to participate.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

No rule that know of, just an interpretation: 10.2.2 SITUATION: During a live ball and with the clock running, substitute A6 enters the court. RULING: A technical foul is charged if recognized by an official before the ball becomes live following the first dead ball.

that's for a substitution T, not for a 6 player T. Different rules, Billy.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

10.2.2 SITUATION: During a live ball and with the clock running, substitute A6 enters the court. RULING: A technical foul is charged if recognized by an official before the ball becomes live following the first dead ball.

10.1.6 SITUATION: With Team A leading 51 to 50, a held ball is called. A6 properly reports and enters the game. Time is then called by Team A. The clock shows two seconds remaining in the game. After play is resumed by a throw-in, the officials: (a) recognize that A has six players competing, but cannot get the clock stopped; or (b) do not notice Team A has six players on the court. Following the throw-in, time expires. Team B now reports to the officials that Team A had six players on the court. RULING: In (a), since one of the officials had knowledge that Team A had six players participating simultaneously and this was detected prior to time expiring, a technical foul is assessed against Team A. In (b), since it was not recognized by either official, but was called to their attention after time had expired, it is too late to assess any penalty.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

That's (10.2.2) for a substitution T, not for a 6 player T. Different rules.

So if during the intermission between the third and fourth period, the scorekeeper tells the officials that six players participated during the third period, several live balls, dead balls ago, then it's not too late to penalize?

Six players, player changing numbers, and participating after disqualification, are all penalized if discovered while being violated. Is the time limit the same for all three, or does the, "charged if recognized by an official before the ball becomes live following the first dead ball", apply to all three?

What is the time limit for each of these three? I thought I had these administrative technical foul time limits figured out. Obviously not. Can we explore this further.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

So if during the intermission between the third and fourth period, the scorekeeper tells the officials that six players participated during the third period, several live balls, dead balls ago, then it's not too late to penalize?

Six players, player changing numbers, and participating after disqualification, are all penalized if discovered while being violated. Is the time limit the same for all three, or does the, "charged if recognized by an official before the ball becomes live following the first dead ball", apply to all three?

What is the time limit for each of these three? I thought I had these administrative technical foul time limits figured out. Obviously not. Can we explore this further.

Billy, there's no time limit for penalty, but for discovery. And no, if the timer tells me 6 players were playing three live balls ago, I don't count that as being discovered in time. I know the timer is part of the officiating crew, but not on this one.

If I don't see it, it didn't happen.