Tough situation my partner put us in

[Smitty]

I'm in a camp scenario working with someone with only a couple years experience. The camp is using rec league middle school games, which is a whole other issue, but I digress. Situation:

White ahead by 15 and clearly will win by a lot more. I've already T'd a Blue team assistant coach. I am lead tableside, first half. Partner is trail opposite table. White is in possession, player is dribbling in my primary and loses control of the ball. Ball is heading toward sideline out of bounds. Dribbler catches up and flings the ball into her backcourt to avoid the ball going out of bounds. The only player back there is a blue player who is poised to retrieve the ball after it bounces and will have an easy layup. However...

As soon as the ball bounces in the backcourt, my partner blows his whistle and calls an over and back violation on White. There's not a White team player within 10 feet of the ball. When I go over and ask what he's doing, he has the deer in the headlights look. He realizes he's kicked it, but now what do we do? Do we give it to White since they were the team in control, even though they could not have touched the ball without violating? What would you do?

[Adam]

Wow.

[Raymond]

By rule you have an inadvertent whistle with White in possession, so White should get the ball.

But in your situation, summer camp, girls are there to work on their games, nothing is at stake, I'm leaning towards giving Blue the ball. Guess I'd HTBT though to get a feel of how things are going.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

By rule you have an inadvertent whistle with White in possession, so White should get the ball.

But in your situation, summer camp, girls are there to work on their games, nothing is at stake, I'm leaning towards giving Blue the ball. Guess I'd HTBT though to get a feel of how things are going.

My partner was insistent that white should get the ball back and I was trying to figure out a way, by rule, that we should give it to blue. But I couldn't. It was chaos. The blue bench was going ballistic and while he was being hammered by them (this wasn't the first inadvertent whistle he had in the game, so I didn't care that he was getting hammered), I quietly slid over to the camp directors and asked what we should do. They said give it to Blue. I didn't ask for an explanation, I just pulled my partner back from the fray and said we were giving it to Blue. That seemed to calm things down.

After the game I asked the camp director what his reasoning was to give it to blue. He said after thinking about it, by rule it should have been White ball, but based on the game situation, and the fact that I'd probably have had to toss the entire Blue coaching staff had we given it to White, giving it to blue was the right thing to do in that situation.

This is how we learn...

I'm still not sure we did the right thing or not. If it wasn't a camp, I probably would have been happy enough tossing the entire Blue coaching staff. And my partner along with them...

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Smitty

...

I'm still not sure we did the right thing or not. If it wasn't a camp, I probably would have been happy enough tossing the entire Blue coaching staff. And my partner along with them...

In this particular situation you did the right thing, though is wasn't correct.

In a REAL game you would have had to calmly explain to Blue's coach the error of your (crew) ways and that by rule White gets the ball. That's where that communication thing comes in handy.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Smitty

My partner was insistent that white should get the ball back and I was trying to figure out a way, by rule, that we should give it to blue. But I couldn't. It was chaos. The blue bench was going ballistic and while he was being hammered by them (this wasn't the first inadvertent whistle he had in the game, so I didn't care that he was getting hammered), I quietly slid over to the camp directors and asked what we should do. They said give it to Blue. I didn't ask for an explanation, I just pulled my partner back from the fray and said we were giving it to Blue. That seemed to calm things down.

After the game I asked the camp director what his reasoning was to give it to blue. He said after thinking about it, by rule it should have been White ball, but based on the game situation, and the fact that I'd probably have had to toss the entire Blue coaching staff had we given it to White, giving it to blue was the right thing to do in that situation.

This is how we learn...

I'm still not sure we did the right thing or not. If it wasn't a camp, I probably would have been happy enough tossing the entire Blue coaching staff. And my partner along with them...

I think you did the right thing. I made an error in State Tourney 2 years ago that I'm thouroughly embarrased by. I fixed it the "right way" rather than the "rule" way. On my evaluation, I was criticized for making the error but not the way I fixed it.

There are many "right" solutions to odd situations that don't have rules support.

In your case, the rules were never written with the expectation of randomly inserted inadvertant whistles. Sure, there is a rules way that can be used to cover them, but that wasn't what that rule was really intended for either.

[Adam]

I think the right thing was done, and honestly, in a non-camp setting at that level of ball in that situation, I would have just done it that way without thinking twice. The camp setting would have given me pause, however.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I think the right thing was done, and honestly, in a non-camp setting at that level of ball in that situation, I would have just done it that way without thinking twice. The camp setting would have given me pause, however.

That's the thing that really messed me up the most. I was so concerned with the fact that I was being observed while all the chaos ensued, that I could not think straight and I just overloaded. It was a great learning experience, after the fact, as it was easily the most bizarre situation I've ever been involved with. If anything remotely like this ever happens again, I will at least act a lot quicker and get the game going again.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

In your case, the rules were never written with the expectation of randomly inserted inadvertant whistles. Sure, there is a rules way that can be used to cover them, but that wasn't what that rule was really intended for either.

Because I was being evaluated at the time, all I was concerned about was a rule way to cover the situation. It just seemed so wrong, but I wasn't really thinking in terms of right and wrong at that moment. Which is why I just caved and asked the camp director what we should do. I felt pretty stupid, but I was already under the bus, what's a couple more wheels rolling over me gonna do?

[IREFU2]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

By rule you have an inadvertent whistle with White in possession, so White should get the ball.

But in your situation, summer camp, girls are there to work on their games, nothing is at stake, I'm leaning towards giving Blue the ball. Guess I'd HTBT though to get a feel of how things are going.

I concur here as well.

[icallfouls]

Very late to the discussion, but what happens to officials that incorrectly administer the rules?

There is usually some sort of suspension or disciplinary action. Assigners cannot defend an official that ignores the rules in order to make things feel good. You might have had to toss the entire blue coaching staff, but that is not the officials problem. They are supposed to know the rules also and conduct themselves appropriately.

Something that might have helped the situation would be to call the coaches over to the table. I might say something like "one of you is not going to like this, but here is what we have. Inadvertant whistle while white had team control. By rule, white will have possession."

I don't really see what is so hard about this situation. Officials can't be concerned with making an unpopular call.

I am sorry Smitty, but if I am you're assignor, I expect you to have thorough rules knowledge and to apply them correctly. Now you and your partner have shown a lack of rules knowledge. If you knew the rule, you could've saved you and your partner, but instead I now have to discipline you both for incorrectly administering a rule. Now when I am looking to assign games I have to put someone on the game with you that I know will get the rules correct.

Additionally, someone from both coaching staff's is likely going to try and determine what the real ruling should be, now they know you missed the rule for the next time they see you. Credibility has suffered with them as well.

In a camp setting, we are auditioning (in some cases) for better games. Officials that take care of business usually get advanced at a quicker rate. If the camp director has an issue with giving the ball back to white, I would tell the director we handled it by rule. What can he say? NOTHING, he didn't even have the rules support to suggest blue should get it.

[Juulie Downs]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

Very late to the discussion, but what happens to officials that incorrectly administer the rules?

There is usually some sort of suspension or disciplinary action. Assigners cannot defend an official that ignores the rules in order to make things feel good. You might have had to toss the entire blue coaching staff, but that is not the officials problem. They are supposed to know the rules also and conduct themselves appropriately.

Something that might have helped the situation would be to call the coaches over to the table. I might say something like "one of you is not going to like this, but here is what we have. Inadvertant whistle while white had team control. By rule, white will have possession."

I don't really see what is so hard about this situation. Officials can't be concerned with making an unpopular call.

I am sorry Smitty, but if I am you're assignor, I expect you to have thorough rules knowledge and to apply them correctly. Now you and your partner have shown a lack of rules knowledge. If you knew the rule, you could've saved you and your partner, but instead I now have to discipline you both for incorrectly administering a rule. Now when I am looking to assign games I have to put someone on the game with you that I know will get the rules correct.

Additionally, someone from both coaching staff's is likely going to try and determine what the real ruling should be, now they know you missed the rule for the next time they see you. Credibility has suffered with them as well.

In a camp setting, we are auditioning (in some cases) for better games. Officials that take care of business usually get advanced at a quicker rate. If the camp director has an issue with giving the ball back to white, I would tell the director we handled it by rule. What can he say? NOTHING, he didn't even have the rules support to suggest blue should get it.

Wow, Jim, I'm not sure you're the one on this board with the very most experience, and highest level of play under your belt, but you sure are right up there near the top, and you've totally been ignored by everyone. Well, don't take it too personally. I listened (for what that's worth!).

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Juulie Downs

Wow, Jim, I'm not sure you're the one on this board with the very most experience, and highest level of play under your belt, but you sure are right up there near the top, and you've totally been ignored by everyone. Well, don't take it too personally. I listened (for what that's worth!).

I don't believe that he was ignored. It seems to me that people read it and didn't have anything to say about it. Personally, I didn't comment on his post because I agreed with it, and had nothing to add.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Smitty

What would you do?

4-36 covers it quite nicely. Since it's an accidental whistle, the ball is put in play by: "A throw-in to the team that was in control at a spot nearest to where the ball was located when the stoppage occured". So if the whistle happened before blue got possession, white gets it back. If the whistle happens after blue got the ball, then blue gets the throw-in.

At least he got the "deer-in-headlights look" rather than arguing with you that he was right.

By rule, in a camp setting, I guess we should go with an IW & give it back to White since they still had TC.

But common sense tells me to go with an IW & just give it to Blue as they are getting smashed & you can already predict the outcome of the game. Plus I'd hate to have to whack somebody else on Blue for our mistake.