Sportsmanship At Its Best -- What Would You Do?

[JAdams]

Varsity boys summer league game. Not quite the formality of winter ball (not the regular school coaches, for instance),but same caliber.

With a minute to go in the game, a shooter goes up for a three-point try, and, as he is returning to the floor, his opponent flicks his fist out and nails the guy in the gonads. Not all that hard (i.e. not really a punch, per se), but hard enough to double the shooter over as he came down.

Besides the obvious three shots, what would you do? Keep in mind it's a summer league game.

1) Flagrant and formal ejection.
2) Intentional only, but tell his coach to sit the kid down for the rest of the game.
3) Personal only, but sit the kid.
4) Personal only, and allow him to stay in the game.

Thx for the feedback. Right or wrong, I did #3 above.

[Jurassic Referee]

I kinda like #2,if you know the coach will sit the kid down without giving you a hassle about it.The extra FT and giving up the ball might help teach him not to do it again.Numbers 1 & 3 are viable,too,but #4 isn't IMO.

[fletch_irwin_m]

As an "athletically challenged" player in my days, I was well versed in the art of "gamesmanship". I would have thrown this player out. To actually ball up a fist and 'nad the shooter was poor sportsmanship and not very subtle. The much better way to get better results would have been to flick the back of his hands and "Whip" the 'nads. It is much quicker, more subtle and a lot more painful. (That is how I learned it!)

[Stan]

Originally posted by JAdams
as he is returning to the floor, his opponent flicks his fist out and nails the guy in the gonads. Not all that hard (i.e. not really a punch, per se), but hard enough to double the shooter over as he came down.

Besides the obvious three shots, what would you do? Keep in mind it's a summer league game.

1) Flagrant and formal ejection.
2) Intentional only, but tell his coach to sit the kid down for the rest of the game.
3) Personal only, but sit the kid.
4) Personal only, and allow him to stay in the game.

Thx for the feedback. Right or wrong, I did #3 above.

I'm not an experienced expert, however, if the defender made a fist and if the defender put that fist where a person would anticipate the shooters gonads would be when he came off the shot, I would vote for #1, any season and any league.

[Mark Padgett]

Striking the ball with the fist is a violation, not a foul. NYUK, NYUK, NYUK.

Seriously, this kid would be toast if I was doing the game, and if the hurt kid popped him back, I might just be looking the other way at the time.

[crew]

i would give a technical foul and possibly eject.

[BktBallRef]

crew, under NF rules, it's a contact foul, so it's a personal foul. If you call it a T, it has to be for fighting and you have to eject. No other choice.

[crew]

bktball ref,
i would consider this similar to a taunt(unsportsmanlike technical foul), kind of like a player bowing his chest into another player. i consider this a physical taunt with the penalty of a technical foul and if this player has been a disruptor previously i would eject. i would give a technical foul or to passify the rule an intentional foul in probly 99% of situatuions that are "nut flicks." this action, to me, is highly unacceptable and should be given a steep penalty.

j.r.
if you have the ability to remove this player from the game by telling the coach to sit him that could possibly be the best for that particular game. the only problem that enters my mind is consistency. what if(unlikely) a player from the other team does a similar act and the coach does not comply with your request to keep him on the bench? also if it were to happen in another game and a different crew ejected or penalized more severely and the coach could react negatively or he could appreciate you for being lenient.
i know i'm getting deep but i enjoy this debate.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by crew
bktball ref,
i would consider this similar to a taunt(unsportsmanlike technical foul), kind of like a player bowing his chest into another player. i consider this a physical taunt with the penalty of a technical foul and if this player has been a disruptor previously i would eject. i would give a technical foul or to passify the rule an intentional foul in probly 99% of situatuions that are "nut flicks." this action, to me, is highly unacceptable and should be given a steep penalty.

j.r.
if you have the ability to remove this player from the game by telling the coach to sit him that could possibly be the best for that particular game. the only problem that enters my mind is consistency. what if(unlikely) a player from the other team does a similar act and the coach does not comply with your request to keep him on the bench? also if it were to happen in another game and a different crew ejected or penalized more severely and the coach could react negatively or he could appreciate you for being lenient.
i know i'm getting deep but i enjoy this debate.

1)Crew,by definition(both in NCAA and Fed rules) you cannot give out a technical foul of any type in this case because the ball is alive.You can only call it a T if the ball is dead.Even if you call it fighting,the rules say it is a flagrant personal foul.It can only be a personal foul of some type,never technical.
2)As for the second question,the doubts that you have are exactly some of the doubts that I had when reading the original sitch.I kept in mind that this was a summer league,rec type of game,not regular season.I think it's kinda tough to answer these types of questions without actually being there.You don't really know if the game had been rough and needed to be cleaned up,if the 2 ballplayers had had something going for a while or if they were buds messing around,how much time was left-which can be a factor(only a minute in this case),how serious the league was on incidents like this,how other guys have been calling this particular league(tight or loose),etc.,etc.I think what I'm trying to say is that I absolutely hate second-guessing other officials in cases like this without actually being there.Myself,I might call ANY of the first three(never the 4th),and hope it does the job for that particular game.I might even second-guess myself later on for the particular choice I made,though.I know this may sound wishy-washy as hell,but it's about the best answer that I can give you.
In a regular game,he's gone!
It is an interesting scenario.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jul 8th, 2002 at 06:33 PM]

[crew]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

1)Crew,by definition(both in NCAA and Fed rules) you cannot give out a technical foul of any type in this case because the ball is alive.You can only call it a T if the ball is dead.Even if you call it fighting,the rules say it is a flagrant personal foul.It can only be a personal foul of some type,never technical.
2)As for the second question,the doubts that you have are exactly some of the doubts that I had when reading the original sitch.I kept in mind that this was a summer league,rec type of game,not regular season.I think it's kinda tough to answer these types of questions without actually being there.You don't really know if the game had been rough and needed to be cleaned up,if the 2 ballplayers had had something going for a while or if they were buds messing around,how much time was left-which can be a factor(only a minute in this case),how serious the league was on incidents like this,how other guys have been calling this particular league(tight or loose),etc.,etc.I think what I'm trying to say is that I absolutely hate second-guessing other officials in cases like this without actually being there.Myself,I might call ANY of the first three(never the 4th),and hope it does the job for that particular game.I might even second-guess myself later on for the particular choice I made,though.I know this may sound wishy-washy as hell,but it's about the best answer that I can give you.
In a regular game,he's gone!
It is an interesting scenario.
[/QUOTE]
1)Crew,by definition(both in NCAA and Fed rules) you cannot give out a technical foul of any type in this case because the ball is alive.

i disagree, taunting technical fouls can be called during a live ball. (ie-coach yelling profanities)
Section 5. Direct Technical Fouls for Unsporting Player Conduct
Unsporting tactics of players include, but are not limited to, the follow-ing:
Art. 1. Disrespectfully addressing or contacting an official or gesturing in such a manner as to indicate resentment.
Art. 2. Using profanity or vulgarity; taunting, baiting or ridiculing another player or bench personnel; or pointing a finger at or making obscene gestures toward another player or bench personnel.

by rule this action can be judged as a taunt. like a player verbally assaulting a player can be issued a technical while the ball is in play.
i am not disagreeing with what you would call in a real game situation, from what you posted all decisions seem legit.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by crew

...
i disagree, taunting technical fouls can be called during a live ball. (ie-coach yelling profanities)
Section 5. Direct Technical Fouls for Unsporting Player Conduct
Unsporting tactics of players include, but are not limited to, the follow-ing:
Art. 1. Disrespectfully addressing or contacting an official or gesturing in such a manner as to indicate resentment.
Art. 2. Using profanity or vulgarity; taunting, baiting or ridiculing another player or bench personnel; or pointing a finger at or making obscene gestures toward another player or bench personnel.

by rule this action can be judged as a taunt. like a player verbally assaulting a player can be issued a technical while the ball is in play.
i am not disagreeing with what you would call in a real game situation, from what you posted all decisions seem legit. [/QUOTE]

A contact foul during a live ball cannot be a technical
foul, as Tony & JR already pointed out. If you're going to
T for taunting then it has to be before the contact. If
it's before the contact then it's hard to justify a
disqualification, under the rules. If your goal is to eject
then go with the flagrant personal. It's all the same,
except for where the ball is put back into play.

[BktBallRef]

crew, hitting a guy in the nuts isn't taunting. Whether you accept it or not, Dan, JR and myself are correct. This is a contact foul. You cannot call a technical for a live ball contact foul. You are correct that it could be called an intentional foul and be considered flagrant. The results are the same. Since no advantage is gained by calling the foul a T, go with the rules and call it an intentional foul.

I have to semi-disagree with JR on the fighting issue. A technical foul can be called for fighting during a live ball situation. 10-3-10 says that fighting is a T. It makes no distinction whether it's during a live ball or dead ball. Fighting is an unsportsmanlike act that occurs whether contact is made or not. Not contact, no personal foul, but it is a T. For that reason, you may call a T for fighting during a live ball. However, the case book does address fighting during a live ball as a flagrant personal foul. The NF really should clean this up.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
crew, hitting a guy in the nuts isn't taunting. Whether you accept it or not, Dan, JR and myself are correct. This is a contact foul. You cannot call a technical for a live ball contact foul. You are correct that it could be called an intentional foul and be considered flagrant. The results are the same. Since no advantage is gained by calling the foul a T, go with the rules and call it an intentional foul.

I have to semi-disagree with JR on the fighting issue. A technical foul can be called for fighting during a live ball situation. 10-3-10 says that fighting is a T. It makes no distinction whether it's during a live ball or dead ball. Fighting is an unsportsmanlike act that occurs whether contact is made or not. Not contact, no personal foul, but it is a T. For that reason, you may call a T for fighting during a live ball. However, the case book does address fighting during a live ball as a flagrant personal foul. The NF really should clean this up.

Tony,the NCAA book is real clear on this one.R10-15-1 defines fighting and also states-Quote-"As determined by the officials,fighting is a flagrant foul and can be either personal(during a live ball)or technical(during a dead ball)."-Unquote.I think that the Fed is a little hazy on it,like you say,but I think that they basically mean the same as the NCAA. JMO,of course,because the Fed language is hazy.

[BktBallRef]

My point is that it's not necessary to have contact to have fighting. Fighting is a technical foul. So, you can have a technical for fighting during a live ball.

[Oz Referee]

How could this be anything but an ejection? Regardless of the league, punching someone is an auto-ejection (especially when it is in this region!).

As a player, if I got punched in the nuts, and the referee didn't throw the offender out - well...let's just say I would be somewhat less than impressed - and would get a T - if not get tossed myself.