Rec league mtg report

[Mark Padgett]

We had a meeting of our local kids rec league Board last night. We adopted a new policy that I think will be very helpful. Each team plays 12 games in the season (one per week). If a coach (HC or AC) gets an unsportsmanlike T during any game, the official reports it to the league after the game. If that coach gets a second one at any other time, the coach will get a written warning and if he or she gets a third one at any time, it's a suspension for the rest of the season and they also must appeal to the Board the following year if they want to come back and coach.

It may seem rather draconian, but with all the very young HS refs we have, we feel we need to "protect" them, plus we have made sportsmanship our number one POE for next season. Just so we have a "good feel" for how the Ts are administered, at least one Board member is present at every game. If they feel the T was not deserved, the Board will then take that into consideration. There's even another Board member at the games I ref - not that any of them would contradict me, of course.

BTW - Board members have the authority to eject spectators - and, unfortunately - that is happening more and more the past few seasons.

Comments?

BTW - for the past 10 years, any profanity by a coach or player is an automatic flagrant T. Our league starts at 3rd grade and the only exception to it automatically being a flagrant is at the HS level, where the ref has some discretion. I had a kid miss an easy layup and mutter "damn", so I just called the T without it being flagrant.

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Comments?

A few questions and comments.

How many T's do you guys issue per yr? Any idea? If you had the new policy in place during the previous season(s) how often would the "three strikes and your out" rule come into play? Just curious.

I ref in two fall/winter Rec Leagues and one summer Rec League. One league is far superior in organization than the other. As one of the more senior officials, even I rarely if ever make the "T" sign for a coach in either league. Many of our refs are very young though. It just doesn't appear to get that bad IMO. Just wondering how rampant it is there? And if there is a reason? Thoughts?

I really do like the fact that you have Board Members at all your games - that's smart and something I wish we did. We rarely even have someone we can turn to as "Building Administration." So, kudos to you on your league structure and the dedication of your Board to be at so many games.

[Nevadaref]

Two comments:
1. Your policy on the accumulation of technical fouls is very similar to soccer players being suspended for accumulations of cautions (yellow cards). It has proven effective in cleaning up play.

2. Unless your board members are also officials, they have no business deciding whether or not a T was warranted. What training do they have to render such a decision? I believe that you are setting a poor precedent by allowing the board member's opinion to potentially override the judgment of the game official.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Unless your board members are also officials, they have no business deciding whether or not a T was warranted. What training do they have to render such a decision? I believe that you are setting a poor precedent by allowing the board member's opinion to potentially override the judgment of the game official.

And you don't think the NBA has already set this precedent?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Ref Ump Welsch

And you don't think the NBA has already set this precedent?

How many posts have I made decrying that?

[refaholic2]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

How many posts have I made decrying that?

too many?

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

How many posts have I made decrying that?

If I were to guess 10% of your total posts, that puts it at well over 900 posts on this topic alone.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by refaholic2

too many?

Originally Posted by Ref Ump Welsch

If I were to guess 10% of your total posts, that puts it at well over 900 posts on this topic alone.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Two comments:
2. Unless your board members are also officials, they have no business deciding whether or not a T was warranted. What training do they have to render such a decision? I believe that you are setting a poor precedent by allowing the board member's opinion to potentially override the judgment of the game official.

Did you miss the part that the refs were young HS kids...14-16 years old? Most of them couldn't have more than a few games on the books. Most will probably be very slow to call a T to start with but a few will get easily flustered over nothing (something misheard and or misunderstood) and/or will be trigger happy.

I'm entirely OK with the more mature and independant board member reviewing the situation with regards to suspensions. More often than not, I bet they'll be confirming the T rather than overriding or even stepping in and dealing with an out of control coach when the kid is clamming up.

[Nevadaref]

No, Camron, I didn't miss that Mark wrote that most of his refs were in HS, nor did I miss that most of the players were in elementary school.

Give me someone else some FREAKIN' credit for once!

As to your point, even if those officials only have a few games under their belts, that's likely more than any of those board members have.

I still don't agree with the entire concept of this.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

No, Camron, I didn't miss that Mark wrote that most of his refs were in HS, nor did I miss that most of the players were in elementary school.

Give me someone else some FREAKIN' credit for once!

I tried that but you're overdrawn.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

As to your point, even if those officials only have a few games under their belts, that's likely more than any of those board members have.

Again, you miss the point.

Whether it is 5, 10, or 20 games under their belt with none for the league admins, those league administrators, having run the league for years and dealt with all the personalities that come with it, will generaly have far more experience in recognizing and dealing with unsportsmanlike behavior. That is why they are there. New referees are not automaticlally endowed with great people skills or good judgement just because they put on a whistle....particularly if they are 15 years old.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I still don't agree with the entire concept of this.

[CoachCER]

Our program has similar policies. In theory, at the lower age groups where we do use high school age referees, any ejection would be reviewed, and my board would take unput from the site supervisor. That has happened two times, and both ejections were rubber stamped by the board.
Ejections/technicals from our experienced referees (grades 5th+) are not subject to review.

We have the same policy regarding applying for reinstatement if a coach was suspended the previous year. That has only happened once, and if the coach would have applied the following year, he would have been rejected.

I remember my very first T. It was when I was working a 7th grade girls game when I was a junior in high school. I T'd up the visiting coach (from a Catholic parochial school) who flat-out said "You f**king suck, ref" to my face after a call went against her team. I wasn't the only one who heard it, because you should have seen the shocked looks on the players' faces on the bench. After the game, she "complained" to the home team's (a Lutheran parochial school) prinicipal/AD/boys coach that she didn't deserve the T. When the principal asked what she said, I repeated it word for word. Almost gave the guy a heart attack.

A couple days later, my HS principal (public school) got a call from the Catholic priest who was the visiting coach's principal, and wanted a conference with me about what happened. Quite an interesting meeting (my principal, the priest, and our varsity basketball coach who "assigned" me to that game), because when I repeated the coach's words, my principal said "wow, if our coach had said that, I would hope his a** was ejected from the game!" (Should have seen our varsity coach's reaction to that, LOL!) The priest said the coach denied using the F-bomb. I said, if I was "hearing" it, how come the players reacted to it too? Next time I had the same teams, word got into the circles that the coach had coached her last game.

I asked my varsity coach (I didn't play, so therefore he thought of having me go over and work because he knew I was interested in officiating) why the priest wanted to "verify" this load of crap. Coach (he was a high school football official at the time) told me they probably wanted to "rescind" the T so it wouldn't be on the poor gal's record or whatever, but since I backed my story up well, he said doubted the priest would go easy on her. I guess that was very prophetic.

[Adam]

Worked a tourney last weekend, varsity level. Player is getting pissy about what he thinks are missed calls, and I warn him to knock it off. A few minutes later I call him for a shooting foul and as I walk by him to report, I hear "fu#king 5hit." Call the T (automatic two points and the ball in this tourney), the coach calls me over to ask so I tell him.

Later in the same game, the same player drops the bomb on one of my partners. 2nd T.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Again, you miss the point.

Whether it is 5, 10, or 20 games under their belt with none for the league admins, those league administrators, having run the league for years and dealt with all the personalities that come with it, will generaly have far more experience in recognizing and dealing with unsportsmanlike behavior. That is why they are there. New referees are not automaticlally endowed with great people skills or good judgement just because they put on a whistle....particularly if they are 15 years old.

Just adding one more thought to my prior post...

This entire discussion is about whether league administrators should have the authrority to set aside a suspension imposed by league rules....not to overturn a call made on the floor. I'd say that ANY level, that is entirely within the scope of the league's authority to do so. The game official has no jurisdiction over league penalties...only in-game penalties. In fact, the state of Oregon, which automatically suspends anyone ejected from a HS game, allows an appeal of the suspension. That appeal is heard by the OSAA and the commissioner of the assigning association. 99% of the time the suspension is upheld, but, on occassion, it is overturned.