NFHS Traveling definition descrepancy

[hoopguy]

I was doing my summer reading of the "2008-2009 High School Basketball Rules Simplified and Illustrated" by the NFHS and came across a slight difference in the Traveling rule.

On page 43 of "Simplified and Illustrated"
"4-15-3 Legal method of starting a dribble. The ball leaves the hand before the pivot foot is lifted. The dribble may be started by pushing, throwing or batting the ball to the floor. A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control."

I do not believe the portion in red is in the regular rule book. It is definitely not in 4-15-3. I am wondering if the portion in red was removed from the rule book at some point in the past.

Is the ball leaving the hand before the pivot foot is lifted is how the rule is normally applied? It seems like it is not called this way now. I may need to rething traveling violation if it should be called this way. The "Simplified and Illustrated" book is produced by NFHS so I am wondering why there is a difference in the definitions. I would think that the more precise definition would be in the regular rule book not the 'Simplified and Illustrated".

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by hoopguy

I was doing my summer reading of the "2008-2009 High School Basketball Rules Simplified and Illustrated" by the NFHS and came across a slight difference in the Traveling rule.

On page 43 of "Simplified and Illustrated"
"4-15-3 Legal method of starting a dribble. The ball leaves the hand before the pivot foot is lifted. The dribble may be started by pushing, throwing or batting the ball to the floor. A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control."

I do not believe the portion in red is in the regular rule book. It is definitely not in 4-15-3. I am wondering if the portion in red was removed from the rule book at some point in the past.

Is the ball leaving the hand before the pivot foot is lifted is how the rule is normally applied? It seems like it is not called this way now. I may need to rething traveling violation if it should be called this way. The "Simplified and Illustrated" book is produced by NFHS so I am wondering why there is a difference in the definitions. I would think that the more precise definition would be in the regular rule book not the 'Simplified and Illustrated".

HoopGuy:

I do not understand what you are trying to say, because NFHS R4-S15-A3 says and I qoute: "The dribble may be started by pushing, throwing or batting the ball to the floor before the pivot foot is lifted." It means that the ball must NOT be in contact with a player's hand(s) when the player lifts his/her pivot foot. If the pivot is lifted before the ball loses contact with the player's hand(s) then the player has traveled. The official does not need to wait for the ball to strike the floor and rebound back to the player so that the player can dribble again.

When the late Dick Schindler was still the NFHS Rules Editor this was a debate at an IAABO Rules Interpreters Conference one year as to whether the official should wait for the ball to strike the floor and rebound back to the player so that the player can dribble again but every casebook play (NBCofUS&C, NFHS, NCAA, and NAGWS) going back to at least the 1960's has ruled that the instant the ball leaves the player's hands, he/she has traveled if his/her pivot foot is not in contact with the floor.

MTD, Sr.

[hoopguy]

I was not referring to striking the floor but the other direction. When has the dribble started? As soon as the ball is being pushed, thrown or batted? Where does the push throw or bat begin? Could a player have started his dribble when one hand is in the process of pushing the ball to the floor?

To me it seems that the "Simplified and Illustrated" definition is much clearer in defining that the ball must leave the hand before the pivot foot is lifted. 44-3-C says "The Pivot Foot may not be lifted before the ball is released" and I should realize that the ball must be out of the hand but to me, that is still not as clear as the "Simplified and Illustrated" description.

Obviosly, this rule does not apply to the NBA and NBA moves all seem to trickle down.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by hoopguy

I would think that the more precise definition would be in the regular rule book not the 'Simplified and Illustrated".

4-15-3
The dribble may be started by pushing, throwing or batting the ball to the floor before the pivot foot is lifted.

4-44-3c
The pivot foot may not be lifted before the ball is released, to start a dribble.

Shame on you for not immediately pulling the reference MTD.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by hoopguy

I was not referring to striking the floor but the other direction. When has the dribble started? As soon as the ball is being pushed, thrown or batted? Where does the push throw or bat begin? Could a player have started his dribble when one hand is in the process of pushing the ball to the floor?

To me it seems that the "Simplified and Illustrated" definition is much clearer in defining that the ball must leave the hand before the pivot foot is lifted. 44-3-C says "The Pivot Foot may not be lifted before the ball is released" and I should realize that the ball must be out of the hand but to me, that is still not as clear as the "Simplified and Illustrated" description.

Obviosly, this rule does not apply to the NBA and NBA moves all seem to trickle down.

The references are quoted by BktBallRef, this is how it's always been. How have you been calling it? Where is the confusion?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

4-15-3
The dribble may be started by pushing, throwing or batting the ball to the floor before the pivot foot is lifted.

4-44-3c
The pivot foot may not be lifted before the ball is released, to start a dribble.

Shame on you for not immediately pulling the reference MTD.

MTD, Sr.