The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 21, 2009, 01:57pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 6
Jump ball goes in?

NFHS - If, during the jump ball to start the game, jumper A1 hits the ball so hard that it goes into their goal (the one they are intending on scoring in) - does the bucket count?
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 21, 2009, 02:14pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Champaign, IL
Posts: 5,687
Well, we can start with rule 5-1, Goal: "A goal is made when a live ball enters the basket from above and remains in or passes through."

Then there's rule 6-1-2, Live Ball: "The ball becomes live when: a.) On a jump ball, the tossed ball leaves the referee's hand(s)."

Ok, so was it a live ball? Check. Did it pass through the basket? Check.

Yep, it counts.

Now, a question back at you: Does it count 2 or 3?
__________________
M&M's - The Official Candy of the Department of Redundancy Department.

(Used with permission.)
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 21, 2009, 04:31pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: St. Louis, Missouri
Posts: 822
Quote:
Originally Posted by M&M Guy View Post
Well, we can start with rule 5-1, Goal: "A goal is made when a live ball enters the basket from above and remains in or passes through."

Then there's rule 6-1-2, Live Ball: "The ball becomes live when: a.) On a jump ball, the tossed ball leaves the referee's hand(s)."

Ok, so was it a live ball? Check. Did it pass through the basket? Check.

Yep, it counts.

Now, a question back at you: Does it count 2 or 3?
I can not see how a jumper can tap the ball in the air from the center circle and the ball stay in the air until it passes through the basket. IF that was to occure then it would be 3 points. The only way that could happen is if the jumper hit the ball with a fist. Fisting is a violation.
The tapped ball could bounce really high, then go in the basket. That would be 2 points
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 21, 2009, 04:37pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 14,994
We know that the goal counts.
The real question is to find a rule which states how to set the AP arrow.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 21, 2009, 05:23pm
Adam's Avatar
Keeper of the HAMMER
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MST
Posts: 27,190
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
We know that the goal counts.
The real question is to find a rule which states how to set the AP arrow.
seems to me the fair answer isn't the right one here.
first team with possession is the non-scoring team. As soon as B has it for the throwin, arrow to A.
__________________
Sprinkles are for winners.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 21, 2009, 05:42pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 14,994
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
seems to me the fair answer isn't the right one here.
first team with possession is the non-scoring team. As soon as B has it for the throwin, arrow to A.
I would take exception to that.
Check the text of 4-3.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Fri May 22, 2009, 10:10am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Champaign, IL
Posts: 5,687
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
I would take exception to that.
Check the text of 4-3.
Doesn't 4-3-1 back up Snaq's point? B1 would be the first player who secures control.

Unless you're saying somehow A1 had possession in order to make the basket? If so, wouldn't that be a violation?
__________________
M&M's - The Official Candy of the Department of Redundancy Department.

(Used with permission.)
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Fri May 22, 2009, 10:18am
Ch1town
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoochy View Post
I can not see how a jumper can tap the ball in the air from the center circle and the ball stay in the air until it passes through the basket.
Whoever does THIS sounds like a prime candidate to be on a box of Wheaties or the new face of a spinach campaign
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Fri May 22, 2009, 04:45pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 14,994
Quote:
Originally Posted by M&M Guy View Post
Doesn't 4-3-1 back up Snaq's point? B1 would be the first player who secures control.
Nope. B1 doesn't have control. He is OOB for a throw-in. For control a player must be holding or dribbling a live ball INBOUNDS. The thrower can't do that.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Fri May 22, 2009, 05:08pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Champaign, IL
Posts: 5,687
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
Nope. B1 doesn't have control. He is OOB for a throw-in. For control a player must be holding or dribbling a live ball INBOUNDS. The thrower can't do that.
Ok, I see what your saying, but I'm not entirely convinced this is a "player-control" issue. The wording in 4-3-1 is slightly different, in that it says, "A player secures control of the ball, as after the jump ball." Why wouldn't the wording say "Player control is established"? That is certainly able to be determined by rule.

This way, the initial AP direction cannot be determined until after the following throw-in has been possessed by a player in-bounds (not just touched), which means either team could end up with the arrow, even though a basket has been scored, and the throw-in has been completed. That just seems strange.
__________________
M&M's - The Official Candy of the Department of Redundancy Department.

(Used with permission.)
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Fri May 22, 2009, 07:08pm
Adam's Avatar
Keeper of the HAMMER
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MST
Posts: 27,190
OK, don't have that rule book thingy handy, but I see a precedent for this with the setting of the arrow following a JB violation. It gets set when the throwin starts.
__________________
Sprinkles are for winners.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Fri May 22, 2009, 10:32pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 14,994
Quote:
Originally Posted by M&M Guy View Post
Ok, I see what your saying, but I'm not entirely convinced this is a "player-control" issue. The wording in 4-3-1 is slightly different, in that it says, "A player secures control of the ball, as after the jump ball." Why wouldn't the wording say "Player control is established"? That is certainly able to be determined by rule.
It uses the words "player" and "control." While it may not be phrased as concretely as you would wish, there isn't any other way to interpret it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by M&M Guy View Post
This way, the initial AP direction cannot be determined until after the following throw-in has been possessed by a player in-bounds (not just touched), which means either team could end up with the arrow, even though a basket has been scored, and the throw-in has been completed. That just seems strange.
Yep, when strange things happen the rules sometimes get strange too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
OK, don't have that rule book thingy handy, but I see a precedent for this with the setting of the arrow following a JB violation. It gets set when the throwin starts.
The only way that you could do that is by the power in 2-3 because the article that provides instruction on how to set the arrow when the throw-in begins clearly enumerates three cases in which it is to be used, and all of them involve either a foul or a violation. In the made goal scenario, neither team fouled or violated. So you can't use those provisions. In order to invoke 2-3 you would have to take the stance that there is no coverage in the rules book for this situation, and the referee is going to make a decision based upon an analogous situation.

PS I wouldn't disagree with that stance.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Sun May 24, 2009, 07:46am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: SW Kansas
Posts: 728
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoochy View Post
Fisting is a violation.
I think this is a point we can all agree with.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Sun May 24, 2009, 09:40am
Adam's Avatar
Keeper of the HAMMER
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MST
Posts: 27,190
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
The only way that you could do that is by the power in 2-3 because the article that provides instruction on how to set the arrow when the throw-in begins clearly enumerates three cases in which it is to be used, and all of them involve either a foul or a violation. In the made goal scenario, neither team fouled or violated. So you can't use those provisions. In order to invoke 2-3 you would have to take the stance that there is no coverage in the rules book for this situation, and the referee is going to make a decision based upon an analogous situation.

PS I wouldn't disagree with that stance.
I agree. I was using it as a precedent only, to use with 2-3 to make a decision.
__________________
Sprinkles are for winners.
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Sun May 24, 2009, 02:11pm
We don't rent pigs
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 7,627
I declare this situation to be impossible, and thus unworthy of further discussion.
__________________
I swear, Gus, you'd argue with a possum.
It'd be easier than arguing with you, Woodrow.


Lonesome Dove
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
jump ball oc Basketball 20 Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:27am
jump ball yankeesfan Basketball 3 Fri Nov 04, 2005 08:17pm
Question -- Jump ball right after opening Jump ball bradfordwilkins Basketball 9 Tue Feb 22, 2005 03:42pm
Jump Ball: Possession Arrow vs. Actual Jump Ball KingTripleJump Basketball 21 Thu Feb 12, 2004 08:47am
is this a jump ball stealthbomber63 Basketball 2 Thu Jan 27, 2000 02:04am


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:19am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1