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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 21, 2009, 01:57pm
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Jump ball goes in?

NFHS - If, during the jump ball to start the game, jumper A1 hits the ball so hard that it goes into their goal (the one they are intending on scoring in) - does the bucket count?
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Old Thu May 21, 2009, 02:14pm
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Well, we can start with rule 5-1, Goal: "A goal is made when a live ball enters the basket from above and remains in or passes through."

Then there's rule 6-1-2, Live Ball: "The ball becomes live when: a.) On a jump ball, the tossed ball leaves the referee's hand(s)."

Ok, so was it a live ball? Check. Did it pass through the basket? Check.

Yep, it counts.

Now, a question back at you: Does it count 2 or 3?
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Old Thu May 21, 2009, 04:31pm
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Originally Posted by M&M Guy View Post
Well, we can start with rule 5-1, Goal: "A goal is made when a live ball enters the basket from above and remains in or passes through."

Then there's rule 6-1-2, Live Ball: "The ball becomes live when: a.) On a jump ball, the tossed ball leaves the referee's hand(s)."

Ok, so was it a live ball? Check. Did it pass through the basket? Check.

Yep, it counts.

Now, a question back at you: Does it count 2 or 3?
I can not see how a jumper can tap the ball in the air from the center circle and the ball stay in the air until it passes through the basket. IF that was to occure then it would be 3 points. The only way that could happen is if the jumper hit the ball with a fist. Fisting is a violation.
The tapped ball could bounce really high, then go in the basket. That would be 2 points
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Old Thu May 21, 2009, 04:37pm
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We know that the goal counts.
The real question is to find a rule which states how to set the AP arrow.
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Old Thu May 21, 2009, 05:23pm
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Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
We know that the goal counts.
The real question is to find a rule which states how to set the AP arrow.
seems to me the fair answer isn't the right one here.
first team with possession is the non-scoring team. As soon as B has it for the throwin, arrow to A.
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Old Thu May 21, 2009, 05:42pm
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Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
seems to me the fair answer isn't the right one here.
first team with possession is the non-scoring team. As soon as B has it for the throwin, arrow to A.
I would take exception to that.
Check the text of 4-3.
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Old Fri May 22, 2009, 10:10am
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Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
I would take exception to that.
Check the text of 4-3.
Doesn't 4-3-1 back up Snaq's point? B1 would be the first player who secures control.

Unless you're saying somehow A1 had possession in order to make the basket? If so, wouldn't that be a violation?
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Old Fri May 22, 2009, 10:18am
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Originally Posted by Zoochy View Post
I can not see how a jumper can tap the ball in the air from the center circle and the ball stay in the air until it passes through the basket.
Whoever does THIS sounds like a prime candidate to be on a box of Wheaties or the new face of a spinach campaign
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Old Fri May 22, 2009, 04:45pm
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Doesn't 4-3-1 back up Snaq's point? B1 would be the first player who secures control.
Nope. B1 doesn't have control. He is OOB for a throw-in. For control a player must be holding or dribbling a live ball INBOUNDS. The thrower can't do that.
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Old Fri May 22, 2009, 05:08pm
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Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
Nope. B1 doesn't have control. He is OOB for a throw-in. For control a player must be holding or dribbling a live ball INBOUNDS. The thrower can't do that.
Ok, I see what your saying, but I'm not entirely convinced this is a "player-control" issue. The wording in 4-3-1 is slightly different, in that it says, "A player secures control of the ball, as after the jump ball." Why wouldn't the wording say "Player control is established"? That is certainly able to be determined by rule.

This way, the initial AP direction cannot be determined until after the following throw-in has been possessed by a player in-bounds (not just touched), which means either team could end up with the arrow, even though a basket has been scored, and the throw-in has been completed. That just seems strange.
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Old Fri May 22, 2009, 07:08pm
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OK, don't have that rule book thingy handy, but I see a precedent for this with the setting of the arrow following a JB violation. It gets set when the throwin starts.
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Old Fri May 22, 2009, 10:32pm
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Originally Posted by M&M Guy View Post
Ok, I see what your saying, but I'm not entirely convinced this is a "player-control" issue. The wording in 4-3-1 is slightly different, in that it says, "A player secures control of the ball, as after the jump ball." Why wouldn't the wording say "Player control is established"? That is certainly able to be determined by rule.
It uses the words "player" and "control." While it may not be phrased as concretely as you would wish, there isn't any other way to interpret it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by M&M Guy View Post
This way, the initial AP direction cannot be determined until after the following throw-in has been possessed by a player in-bounds (not just touched), which means either team could end up with the arrow, even though a basket has been scored, and the throw-in has been completed. That just seems strange.
Yep, when strange things happen the rules sometimes get strange too.

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Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
OK, don't have that rule book thingy handy, but I see a precedent for this with the setting of the arrow following a JB violation. It gets set when the throwin starts.
The only way that you could do that is by the power in 2-3 because the article that provides instruction on how to set the arrow when the throw-in begins clearly enumerates three cases in which it is to be used, and all of them involve either a foul or a violation. In the made goal scenario, neither team fouled or violated. So you can't use those provisions. In order to invoke 2-3 you would have to take the stance that there is no coverage in the rules book for this situation, and the referee is going to make a decision based upon an analogous situation.

PS I wouldn't disagree with that stance.
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Old Sun May 24, 2009, 07:46am
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Originally Posted by Zoochy View Post
Fisting is a violation.
I think this is a point we can all agree with.
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Old Sun May 24, 2009, 09:40am
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Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
The only way that you could do that is by the power in 2-3 because the article that provides instruction on how to set the arrow when the throw-in begins clearly enumerates three cases in which it is to be used, and all of them involve either a foul or a violation. In the made goal scenario, neither team fouled or violated. So you can't use those provisions. In order to invoke 2-3 you would have to take the stance that there is no coverage in the rules book for this situation, and the referee is going to make a decision based upon an analogous situation.

PS I wouldn't disagree with that stance.
I agree. I was using it as a precedent only, to use with 2-3 to make a decision.
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Old Sun May 24, 2009, 02:11pm
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I declare this situation to be impossible, and thus unworthy of further discussion.
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