Act of shooting

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by just another ref

This was the main reason I said we could not automatically assume from the OP that a shooting foul was involved. In my estimation, a player taking the ball "to the rim" does not pick up his dribble at the ft line.

Well, when do you say a try actually starts? Can you give me a couple of concrete examples of the deliniation between another motion/action ending and the try starting?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Well, when do you say a try actually starts? Can you give me a couple of concrete examples of the deliniation between another motion/action ending and the try starting?

The whole point was that it is difficult to put on paper a concrete example of when the try has started. These are plays which, in my opinion, simply must be seen and judged individually as they happen. When a player gather the dribble and goes up for the shot, the time in between may be a negligible. But this same player may also pause in between for any number of reasons. Bottom line: A player ends a dribble and "immediately" releases a shot. Is it possible for a foul which occurs after the dribble ended to not be a shooting foul? yes

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by just another ref

The whole point was that it is difficult to put on paper a concrete example of when the try has started. These are plays which, in my opinion, simply must be seen and judged individually as they happen. When a player gather the dribble and goes up for the shot, the time in between may be a negligible. But this same player may also pause in between for any number of reasons. Bottom line: A player ends a dribble and "immediately" releases a shot. Is it possible for a foul which occurs after the dribble ended to not be a shooting foul? yes

Well, aren't the rules written on paper?

While I don't necessarily disagree that there can be a distinctive "pause" between gathering the dribble and starting a try, in most cases that "pause" doesn't exist. That's why I asked you to give me your specific idea as to when a try starts. Are you saying, for example, that on a driving layup to the basket, there is a period of time (however small) between when the player gathers the ball from the dribble, and when the try/shot actually starts? I'm not talking about the drive, stop, head fake one way, shot the other way; I'm simply talking about the normal drive and layup.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

While I don't necessarily disagree that there can be a distinctive "pause" between gathering the dribble and starting a try, in most cases that "pause" doesn't exist. That's why I asked you to give me your specific idea as to when a try starts. Are you saying, for example, that on a driving layup to the basket, there is a period of time (however small) between when the player gathers the ball from the dribble, and when the try/shot actually starts? I'm not talking about the drive, stop, head fake one way, shot the other way; I'm simply talking about the normal drive and layup.

To answer this, one would need a definition of when "gathering" starts and ends. I'm saying that the try does not start when the dribble ends, (when the ball is touched with two hands) but with some subsequent movement, which may be then recognized as part of a try. In many cases, these two separate actions may occur so close together that it might be impossible to separate the two.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by just another ref

To answer this, one would need a definition of when "gathering" starts and ends. I'm saying that the try does not start when the dribble ends, (when the ball is touched with two hands) but with some subsequent movement, which may be then recognized as part of a try. In many cases, these two separate actions may occur so close together that it might be impossible to separate the two.

(Which one of us is arguing with the possum?...)

We don't need a definition of "gathering". We already have a definition of when a dribble ends (4-15-4). We already have a definition of "continuous motion" (4-11). 4-11-2 is particularly relevant, in that it states: "...and if pivoting or stepping when fouled, may complete the usual foot or body movement in any activity while holding the ball". In the OP, the player was already holding the ball (dribble had ended), and stepping towards the basket (allowed in 4-11-2, assuming the foot movements were legal), so the foul would still be considered a shooting foul.

I'm still curious as to where specifically you feel a try actually starts? You seem to be saying, even on a straight drive for a layup, that there is some action/motion that happens in between when the player ends the dribble and when the try/shot actually starts. What is that action/motion? Now, I agree that a fake would preceed a try, so if a foul occured during a shot fake it would not be considered part of continuous motion. But, going back to the OP, if A1 ends the dribble on a fast drive near the FT line with both feet off the ground, the first step would be considered establishing the pivot foot, the second step would be lifting the pivot foot, and then the shot leaves the hand. Are you saying one of those actions, perhaps establishing the pivot foot, is not part of the shooting motion?

This discussion does seem to point out that many officials, coaches, and players are not aware that a try, and continuous motion, by rule, begins sooner than they think. This leads to many officials not awarding FT's on some plays where they should be awarded.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

I'm still curious as to where specifically you feel a try actually starts? You seem to be saying, even on a straight drive for a layup, that there is some action/motion that happens in between when the player ends the dribble and when the try/shot actually starts. What is that action/motion? Now, I agree that a fake would preceed a try, so if a foul occured during a shot fake it would not be considered part of continuous motion. But, going back to the OP, if A1 ends the dribble on a fast drive near the FT line with both feet off the ground, the first step would be considered establishing the pivot foot, the second step would be lifting the pivot foot, and then the shot leaves the hand. Are you saying one of those actions, perhaps establishing the pivot foot, is not part of the shooting motion?

My position is that there is nothing that a player can do with a foot alone which would constitute the beginning of a try. This foot movement would need to be accompanied by something which could be considered to be a part of the throwing motion.

4-11-1: .......foul.....during the interval which begins when the habitual throwing movement starts a try........

4-11-2: he........may complete the usual foot or body movement........
These privileges are granted only when the usual throwing motion has started.....

[Kelvin green]

the rule states "begins when the habitual throwing movement starts"

On a drive where does the habitual throwing motion begin? On a drive the player is dribbling, he picks up the ball to go to the basket. A throwing motion to the basket starts when he picks up the ball. The player has two choices at that point pass or shoot.... If he doesnt pass then he was shooting.

On a set shot it is pretty obvious when the shot begins. If you have a quick player the dribbles and goes into an immediate jump shot (based on my experience) most of the time throwing motion is when he gathers the ball...

The casebook clearly states continuous motion ends if there is a dribble that starts...If the player catches the ball then the dribble ends....

Looking to casebook or rule book there is no further definition of habitual throwing motion. On a layup in my mind this is clear... I like what the NBA rule book states" The act of shooting starts when, in the official’s judgment, the player has started his shooting motion" .... Bottom line this is judgment when the shooting motion starts but too often high school officials but when the definition of continuous motion in NFHS and continuation of the NBA are nearly identical..we should be pretty consistent...

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

My position is that there is nothing that a player can do with a foot alone which would constitute the beginning of a try. This foot movement would need to be accompanied by something which could be considered to be a part of the throwing motion.

4-11-1: .......foul.....during the interval which begins when the habitual throwing movement starts a try........

4-11-2: he........may complete the usual foot or body movement........
These privileges are granted only when the usual throwing motion has started.....

FWIW I believe that you are 100% correct. An official needs to see some movement to indicate that the player is attempting to score. It doesn't have to be much, but it does need to be more than simply ending a dribble or picking up the ball.