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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 07, 2009, 05:38pm
rsl rsl is offline
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pivot foot: drag vs lift

The definition of travel says

"The pivot foot may be lifted, but not returned to the floor..."

When a dribbler stops too fast, it is often the case that he will drag the pivot
some distance without actually lifting it from the floor. I call this a travel.

It also happens that players lift the heel of the pivot foot and pivot on the toes. If they shift their body too much, it is easy in this case that they drag the pivot foot with the toes touching the floor. I usually call this a travel.

When, under pressure, a player spins back and forth rapidly on the pivot foot, the pivot foot usually moves slightly on the floor. I rarely call this a travel.

How much does the pivot foot have to move, without lifting, to be a travel?
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Old Tue Apr 07, 2009, 07:07pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rsl View Post
How much does the pivot foot have to move, without lifting, to be a travel?
If you are looking for a specific measurement you probably are not going to fine one that will be satisfactory. The best I can tell you is if the foot obviously moves that would be enough. I do not think we are there to measure with a ruler. You just have to call what you see, and I know I would rather have others see something than nothing.

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Old Tue Apr 07, 2009, 07:39pm
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Move Foot Equals Travel ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by rsl View Post
The definition of travel says "The pivot foot may be lifted, but not returned to the floor". How much does the pivot foot have to move, without lifting, to be a travel?
Check out the beginning of the definition: Traveling is moving a foot or feet in any direction in excess of prescribed limits while holding the ball.

You move the foot when you are not allowed to, it's a travel.
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Old Tue Apr 07, 2009, 07:54pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Check out the beginning of the definition: Traveling is moving a foot or feet in any direction in excess of prescribed limits while holding the ball.

You move the foot when you are not allowed to, it's a travel.
What are those prescribed limits? Is it defined somewhere? If not, how is consistency among officials obtained?
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Old Tue Apr 07, 2009, 08:34pm
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travell

if there is a major disadvantage or if everyone in the whole gym knows its a travel then i would call it but if there is just a little movement i would pass on it (game stopper)
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Old Tue Apr 07, 2009, 09:14pm
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I was at a camp with Verne Harris and he said "You don't want traveling to be your best call."

Mregor
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Old Wed Apr 08, 2009, 12:08am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rsl View Post
The definition of travel says

"The pivot foot may be lifted, but not returned to the floor..."

When a dribbler stops too fast, it is often the case that he will drag the pivot
some distance without actually lifting it from the floor. I call this a travel.

It also happens that players lift the heel of the pivot foot and pivot on the toes. If they shift their body too much, it is easy in this case that they drag the pivot foot with the toes touching the floor. I usually call this a travel.

When, under pressure, a player spins back and forth rapidly on the pivot foot, the pivot foot usually moves slightly on the floor. I rarely call this a travel.

How much does the pivot foot have to move, without lifting, to be a travel?
Don't forget to consult the definition of PIVOT in 4-33.

"...the pivot foot, is kept at its point of contact with the floor."

That is what makes dragging illegal. Now how tightly you wish to enforce that rule is up to you. Most people will penalize if the movement is illegal AND the player gains an unfair advantage from it.
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Old Wed Apr 08, 2009, 06:32am
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You Asked For It ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by refguy View Post
What are those prescribed limits? Is it defined somewhere? If not, how is consistency among officials obtained?
The limits on foot movements are as follows:

A player who catches the ball with both feet on the floor, may pivot, using either foot. When one foot is lifted, the other is the pivot foot.

A player, who catches the ball while moving or dribbling, may stop, and establish a pivot foot as follows:
a. If both feet are off the floor and the player lands:
1. Simultaneously on both feet, either foot may be the pivot.
2. On one foot followed by the other, the first foot to touch is the pivot.
3. On one foot, the player may jump off that foot and simultaneously land
on both. Neither foot can be a pivot in this case.
b. If one foot is on the floor:
1. It is the pivot when the other foot touches in a step.
2. The player may jump off that foot and simultaneously land on both. Neither foot can be a pivot in this case.

After coming to a stop and establishing a pivot foot:
a. The pivot foot may be lifted, but not returned to the floor, before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal.
b. If the player jumps, neither foot may be returned to the floor before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal.
c. The pivot foot may not be lifted before the ball is released, to start a dribble.

After coming to a stop when neither foot can be a pivot:
a. One or both feet may be lifted, but may not be returned to the floor before
the ball is released on a pass or try for goal.
b. Neither foot may be lifted before the ball is released, to start a dribble.

A player holding the ball:
a. May not touch the floor with a knee or any other part of the body other than hand or foot.
b. After gaining control while on the floor and touching with other than hand
or foot, may not attempt to get up or stand.
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Old Wed Apr 08, 2009, 09:14am
rsl rsl is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
Don't forget to consult the definition of PIVOT in 4-33.

"...the pivot foot, is kept at its point of contact with the floor."

That is what makes dragging illegal. Now how tightly you wish to enforce that rule is up to you. Most people will penalize if the movement is illegal AND the player gains an unfair advantage from it.
Thanks. This is what I was looking for- I wasn't sure what made the drag illegal. I also like the comments from JRutledge that you don't want to be the only one in the gym that sees it and from Mregor that "You don't want traveling to be your best call."

This forum is great! As much as I would like to solve the worlds social problems, I enjoy it a lot more when we stick to basketball.
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Old Wed Apr 08, 2009, 10:35am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mregor View Post
I was at a camp with Verne Harris and he said "You don't want traveling to be your best call."

Mregor
A very poor outlook in my opinion and a cop out for some officials' failure or refusal to call it. Traveling is just another call that needs to be called. That kind of mindset puts the wrong team at a disadvantage. It is tremendously difficult to legally guard players who are allowed to travel without a whistle. How many times is there a foul on the defense after officials fail to call traveling?

Again I quote Verne's boss:
4. I'm not sure what our problem with traveling is. I believe most Division I referees can recite the rule and understand it so I am left with the assumption that they don't get in good position to see the whole play start, develop, and finish.

Last edited by refguy; Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 10:38am.
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Old Wed Apr 08, 2009, 10:38am
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if you really focus on the players feet the whole time and nothing else im sure you can have a whistle everytime down the court...advantage-disadvantage...unnescessary game stoppages in my opinion
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Old Wed Apr 08, 2009, 10:59am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mregor View Post
I was at a camp with Verne Harris and he said "You don't want traveling to be your best call."

Mregor
im sorry but i want to be the best at every call, but traveling is a very hard call to make especially when you have supreme athletes to referee.

the basic principle should be as with refereeing every basketball play, "when you're certain, blow the whistle and dont guess and if you're unsure but if you think it was a travel don't call it.

Also just wanted to add and point out that when players "stop too fast" as RSL alluded too, it is very often that the dribbler "double taps" his non pivot foot which alot of referees mistake for a travel. i have seen that happen more than a drag of the actual pivot foot. my personal observation.
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Old Wed Apr 08, 2009, 11:15am
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Originally Posted by btaylor64 View Post
im sorry but i want to be the best at every call, but traveling is a very hard call to make especially when you have supreme athletes to referee.
I don't think you get it. The remark is supposed to point out that nobody advances just because they're really good at calling traveling.
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Old Wed Apr 08, 2009, 12:47pm
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Originally Posted by mbyron View Post
I don't think you get it. The remark is supposed to point out that nobody advances just because they're really good at calling traveling.
The problem with these guys is that they've ignored it for so long they don't know how to call it. The National Coordinator made it a point of emphasis during the season and I've seen more whistles on non-travels than ever before. Yes it does take tremendous work to get better at being able to referee the defense and still see the travels, but it can be done. The best way is to move to get better position to be able to see it all. IMO, that's the main reason a lot of those guys don't pick it up - because they're out of position and many are too slow to get there consistently.
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Old Wed Apr 08, 2009, 12:49pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyron View Post
I don't think you get it. The remark is supposed to point out that nobody advances just because they're really good at calling traveling.
Thanks mbyron, im pretty sure i got it. I also get that a missed call is a missed call, it still goes down on the paper as a IC or NCI regardless of the type of call.
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