Ball pressed to body

[Amesman]

A1 is dribbling in the lane and loses control, B2 comes in and swipes at the ball with one hand -- pinning it on A1's stomach. They kind of shuffle a couple steps down the court this way before the ball falls away. Partner called traveling on A1 and I couldn't think of what to tell him instead. Looked so darn odd, it seemed like something was wrong. Ruling?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Amesman

A1 is dribbling in the lane and loses control, B2 comes in and swipes at the ball with one hand -- pinning it on A1's stomach. They kind of shuffle a couple steps down the court this way before the ball falls away. Partner called traveling on A1 and I couldn't think of what to tell him instead. Looked so darn odd, it seemed like something was wrong. Ruling?

Tell him traveling is moving the pivot foot in excess of prescribed limits while holding the ball. Then ask him if A1 was holding the ball.

[M&M Guy]

The definition of Traveling (4-44) is pretty specific: "Traveling (running with the ball) is moving a foot or feet in any direction in excess of prescribed limits while holding the ball."

Was A1 holding the ball?

[M&M Guy]

Dang you jar!

I guess I need to do a refresher on my speed-typing.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Amesman

A1 is dribbling in the lane and loses control, B2 comes in and swipes at the ball with one hand -- pinning it on A1's stomach. They kind of shuffle a couple steps down the court this way before the ball falls away. Partner called traveling on A1 and I couldn't think of what to tell him instead. Looked so darn odd, it seemed like something was wrong. Ruling?

The way I read this, there is no way that A1 has possession, since the ball is not in A1's hands, and A1 is not dribbling the ball. Since A1 does not have possession, there cannot be a travel by A1.

In addition, there is no way that B2 has possession, since the ball is not in B2's hands, and B2 is not dribbling the ball. Since B2 does not have possession, there cannot be a travel by B2.

Possession is not something that either player has/earns when it takes each of them to possess the ball. As soon as either A1 or B2 is absent in the above equation, there is no possession, so therefore no travel.

[Amesman]

That's what I thought it would come down to -- one stomach and another person's hand does not equal anybody's possession. So, just to draw out this scenario, as improbable as it sounds, this arrangement could continue for unlimited steps by both players then, right?

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Amesman

That's what I thought it would come down to -- one stomach and another person's hand does not equal anybody's possession. So, just to draw out this scenario, as improbable as it sounds, this arrangement could continue for unlimited steps by both players then, right?

Sure thing.

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by Amesman

....as improbable as it sounds, this arrangement could continue for unlimited steps by both players then, right?

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Sure thing.

Can you just imagine the coaches jumping out of their skin to get a call here?

You - "Coach, neither had possession. What would you like me to call, a reach?"

I need some of Mark's meds.....

[sseltser]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

The way I read this, there is no way that A1 has possession, since the ball is not in A1's hands, and A1 is not dribbling the ball. Since A1 does not have possession, there cannot be a travel by A1.

In addition, there is no way that B2 has possession, since the ball is not in B2's hands, and B2 is not dribbling the ball. Since B2 does not have possession, there cannot be a travel by B2.

Possession is not something that either player has/earns when it takes each of them to possess the ball. As soon as either A1 or B2 is absent in the above equation, there is no possession, so therefore no travel.

Is there anything that prevents A1 and A2 from doing this, then? They could possibly advance all the way down the court without dribbling. Not incredibly efficient, but could be effective.

[bbcoach7]

Originally Posted by grunewar

Can you just imagine the coaches jumping out of their skin to get a call here?

You - "Coach, neither had possession. What would you like me to call, a reach?" I need some of Mark's meds.....

Nah, I'm actually fairly certain an official in my area would likely call this a held ball (alternating possession). But I coach girls, and there's so many alternating possession calls in girls basketball, especially below the Varsity level, I'd just roll my eyes at yet a n o t h e r held ball call.

Honestly, I'll admit that I don't believe I was aware there's actually no such thing as "reaching in," or "over-the-back" until I started reading the posts in here. But it certainly doesn't help when I occassionally hear otherwise good Ref's saying, "over-the-back" as they report the call. I figure they actually know better, but they probably report that way for the benefit of coaches so we understand the call. But it only serves to perpetuate the incorrect language.

I've learned a lot from this site. I think it should be required reading for all youth and HS coaches, with one caveat- they (we) can't post a response or start a new thread until we've been reading posts and threads for AT LEAST 1 year. I'm serious.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by sseltser

Is there anything that prevents A1 and A2 from doing this, then? They could possibly advance all the way down the court without dribbling. Not incredibly efficient, but could be effective.

To answer your question, "no".

I agree that it is not incredibly efficient. As for effective, it would take some choreographed talent to do this for any "appreciable" length of time.

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by bbcoach7

I think it should be required reading for all youth and HS coaches, with one caveat- they (we) can't post a response or start a new thread until we've been reading posts and threads for AT LEAST 1 year. I'm serious.

....and used the search feature to see if their question has already been answered/discussed.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by grunewar

I need some of Mark's meds.....

Just send me your debit card number and PIN and they'll be there eventually.