How about 8 body lengths?

[greymule]

EG: R1, no outs, hit and run. A fly is batted to right-center field and R1 touches and rounds second base on his advance. An outfielder dives and catches the fly. R1 reverses direction, misses second base on his way back, and the throw to first goes wild into the dugout. R1 is awarded third. He retouches first, touches second, and proceeds to third: an appeal of second is denied. The runner touched it his final time past the base.

This makes sense, but what if the runner had gone directly back to 1B from his position between 2B and 3B, missing 2B by several body lengths? Does he still get credit for touching 2B if he does so the "last time by"?

When I was 12, I was umpiring the bases in a LL game. The BR got a hit in the gap, ran to 1B, and then ran directly to 3B, saying, "Oops!" as he crossed the mound.

I called him out, but everybody told me I should have said nothing until the defense appealed. Since the runner missed 2B by about 8 body lengths, had I made the right call?

[nine01c]

OBR
The answer to your first question is YES. The "last time by" touch made his advance legal.

The answer to your second question is NO. You were wrong in calling the runner OUT without a proper appeal by the defense. Body lengths don't matter. But come on, you were 12 and that was a LONG time ago. It's OK.

[greymule]

Well, at the time it seemed to me that running straight to 3B from 1B was different from missing 2B. However, the play occurred in 1961, so it's too late for a protest.

Eric Schweiker was the kid's name. To my knowledge, he didn't make the pros.

So when does missing a base by 8 body lengths come into play? Where are two plays different because the runner missed a base by 20 feet rather than 3 inches?

[Edited by greymule on Aug 17th, 2003 at 10:58 AM]

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by greymule
Well, at the time it seemed to me that running straight to 3B from 1B was different from missing 2B. However, the play occurred in 1961, so it's too late for a protest.

Eric Schweiker was the kid's name. To my knowledge, he didn't make the pros.

So when does missing a base by 8 body lengths come into play? Where are two plays different because the runner missed a base by 20 feet rather than 3 inches?

[Edited by greymule on Aug 17th, 2003 at 10:58 AM]

THe plays are similar in that an appeal is still required for an out.

The plays are different in that missign a base by 20' can't be corrected using "last time by" but a miss by 3" can be.

The minor league umpire I talked to said (we were discussing a miss at second), "If the runner is on the grass, he can't correct the error. If the runner goes over or just by, the base he can. In between, it's a judgment call."

[greymule]

Thanks, Bob. Your explanation, however, conflicts with that of nine01c. To my question,

What if the runner had gone directly back to 1B from his position between 2B and 3B, missing 2B by several body lengths? Does he still get credit for touching 2B if he does so the "last time by"?

nine01c answered that "last time by made his advance legal." But apparently that's not so.

Am I correct in saying the following?:

"If a runner has missed retouching 2B by 20 feet, he cannot, once he returns to 1B, correct his gross error, either by running to 2B and then 1B, or by 'last time by.' Regardless, the defense must still appeal."

[Warren Willson]

Originally posted by greymule
Am I correct in saying the following?:

"If a runner has missed retouching 2B by 20 feet, he cannot, once he returns to 1B, correct his gross error, either by running to 2B and then 1B, or by 'last time by.' Regardless, the defense must still appeal."

A base runner may ALWAYS correct even a GROSS base running error while the ball remains alive and in play. The fact that he "may" doesn't necessarily mean he "can", however. The game action and the position of other runners will effect his ability to undo his error, regardless of his right to do so.

OTOH, a runner may not correct a GROSS base running error using Last Time By. I agree that that the wording of the J/R interpretation could appear confusing in that regard:

A runner is vulnerable to appeal if

(1) he does not touch a base when advancing (or returning) by such base (within a body's length) the final time. An advance or return "by" a base does not include a complete bypass of such base (outside a body's length) in an attempt to reach a subsequent base safely.{my underlines and emphasis}

Did you read that interpretation as a runner can never correct an error if it was more than a body length? If that's the case, I'd have to say that the J/R is actually talking about how big an error may be corrected "the final time" by the base. It is not talking about the correcting of errors by undoing them in the normal course of live ball play.

Hope this helps

Cheers

[greymule]

Did you read that interpretation as a runner can never correct an error if it was more than a body length? If that's the case, I'd have to say that the J/R is actually talking about how big an error may be corrected "the final time" by the base. It is not talking about the correcting of errors by undoing them in the normal course of live ball play.

I didn't think it meant that a runner could not correct a gross error, only that he could not correct it "last time by." Certainly, in live play, he could correct any error, assuming as you say that the placement of other runners makes it possible.

For example, Abel on 1B takes off on a long fly ball. Abel is between 2B and 3B when F8 makes the catch. Abel cuts directly toward 1B as F8 falls down 420 feet from home plate. Abel is almost to 1B when the coach yells for him to touch 2B. Abel runs to 2B and makes it back to 1B. That's fine. He's safe.

I guess that even if Abel, after using the shortcut, actually made it back to 1B, he would still have the opportunity to go retouch 2B and then try to make it back to 1B before F8 picks himself up and gets the throw back in.

With the ball dead, we might have a different story, though. Suppose Abel takes his gross-error shortcut to 1B, and then the throw enters DBT as Abel is standing on 1B. How does he correct his error? Since he can't do so using "last time by," can he run to retouch 2B, go back and retouch 1B, and then take his award? Or would the situation be different if the throw entered DBT and then Abel arrived at 1B?

I'm trying to understand just how a 20-foot error is treated differently from a 3-inch error.

[Warren Willson]

Originally posted by greymule
With the ball dead, we might have a different story, though. Suppose Abel takes his gross-error shortcut to 1B, and then the throw enters DBT as Abel is standing on 1B. How does he correct his error? Since he can't do so using "last time by," can he run to retouch 2B, go back and retouch 1B, and then take his award? Or would the situation be different if the throw entered DBT and then Abel arrived at 1B?

I'm trying to understand just how a 20-foot error is treated differently from a 3-inch error.

It's probably more a question of WHY the error is treated differently than HOW.

Without using Last Time By there is no way for Abel to correct his GROSS miss of 2nd once the ball has become dead, even though he may be awarded 3rd base on the overthrown ball. [OBR 5.02] The shortcut across the diamond would be regarded as an illegal attempt to gain distance advantage to avoid a live ball appeal and put out at 1st for leaving early.

I think that leads us to the underlying rationale for using Last Time By. I take J/R's use of the "within a body length" criterion to be equivalent to saying "if he could have touched the base in passing but didn't, then he can correct it last time by". IOW, the runner had to be able to reach out and touch the base in passing by when he missed it, or he wouldn't have passed by close enough to deserve the protection of LTB on the way back - a bit like allowing the neighbourhood play at 2nd.

The point is that the runner who misses the base "within a body length" when passing gains no real distance advantage on that play at 1st. So why penalise that runner and force the issue? Why force professional baseball players to dance backward and forward across a base in order to become legal when the fans didn't even see them miss it the first time? And why force professional baseball umpires to keep track of every minor miss of a base so they can unravel the mess in a conference when and if an appeal is finally made? That would prevent the game from flowing and would confuse the heck out of the fans, or worse still bore them to tears. It's all about providing a fast-paced and easy-to-follow entertainment for the paying fans.

Certainly a "miss should be a miss" if you are looking to have a perfectly JUST outcome. BUT professional baseball isn't about JUST outcomes - it's about entertainment for the fans. There is another argument that says that LTB also prevents the defense from guaranteeing an out on appeal by deliberatly making an error on the throw to kill the ball. Personally I think that's just a happy coincidence.

Hope this helps

Cheers

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by greymule

EG: R1, no outs, hit and run. A fly is batted to right-center field and R1 touches and rounds second base on his advance. An outfielder dives and catches the fly. R1 reverses direction, misses second base on his way back, and the throw to first goes wild into the dugout. R1 is awarded third. He retouches first, touches second, and proceeds to third: an appeal of second is denied. The runner touched it his final time past the base.

I called him out, but everybody told me I should have said nothing until the defense appealed. Since the runner missed 2B by about 8 body lengths, had I made the right call?

IMO, the last time by theory is trying to "level out the playing field". By that I mean in general terms baseball rules do not or should not favor the team that errs.

ok one might say well there were 2 errors so shouldn't they both be penalized. IMO, it depends.

Example; R1 hit and run; r1 touches second on route to third, sees the ball caught reverses direction touches second on his way back to first but the ball is thrown into DBT. Umpire calls time and awards R1 third base. R1 properly touches first and second on route to third.

Suppose r2 didn't touch second on his way back to first base during live ball but was "in the vinicity" why should we subsequently reward the Defense for making a bad play?

The result will be the same. The runner is awarded 2 bases from TOT, so in effect the missing of the base on the way back did not gain him / her any advantage unless there was gross negligance meaning the runner cut right across the diamond trying to gain an advantage.

One day the rules might be simplified to simply say if the Defense throws the ball into DBT - No appeals allowed. The defense is throwing to first to try and double up the runner. If they make a bad play they should be penalized and IMO that's what the concept of Last time by is attempting to do.

Everyone sees the ball going into DBT and thinks the runner should be awarded something but not everyone sees the miss base.

Pete Booth