Body Displacement

alfreedog · #1 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 19, 2005, 10:47am

Here is a question and a situation that happens often, just want to get everyone's opinion on how they see this play.

A1 is going up for a lay up and B1 is trailing the play, as A1 places the ball on the backboard B1 blocks the shot but in turn makes body contact with A1 and displaces his body so he in turns hits the floor. Foul or incidental contact?

IMHO This is a game situation call, in some games I have called this a foul and in others I haven't. It all depends if I am at the L or the T or C. At the L I am looking for the body contact not at the shot at the T and C I am focus on the release point showing a good block. I'm listening!

TriggerMN · #2 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 19, 2005, 10:56am

If shooter A1 hits the floor in this case, call the foul. Most assignors I know would rather have you call it here, if for no other reason than to keep the game from getting even more physical.

JRutledge · #3 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 19, 2005, 11:11am

I have said this before many times on this site. It depends on the judgment of the official.

Many times players are just out of control and we bail out the offensive player by calling a foul on a defender that did not do anything. I do not think a call is an "automatic." Basketball is a contact sport and there is going to be contact. It is our judgment to decide if the contact was illegal. I know you said there was displacement, but that is a judgment call or decision. Other officials might not think so and not call anything.

Peace

Rizzo21 · #4 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 19, 2005, 12:00pm

Great question to which the answers I am all ears. I'm a real greenhorn to the world of officiating. My question is: if this call is made, what is the official foul called in this case? I've had to forget all the false definitions I learned as a casual fan ("over the back", "hacking", etc.) and must now learn to narrow my focus to the APPROVED fouls and their related signals.

JRutledge · #5 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 19, 2005, 12:03pm

I think a "push" will do.

Peace

blindzebra · #6 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 19, 2005, 03:31pm

Too many variables to have a catch-all call.

I have heard, and use, the phrase, "Body then ball foul, ball then body nothing," but you must consider how severe the contact was after the clean block and if LGP and verticality are in play, as well.

I think the game itself factors into the call, too. A physical or rivalry game is more likely to get a foul call in this situation just to keep things under control.

As Rut mentioned at times the lack of body control by the shooter will cause them to hit the floor much more than any contact.

Just be aware of the defense, know the timing of the block/body contact, factor in the mood/level of play, and don't bail out an out of control shooter.

Pretty easy.

blindzebra · #7 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 19, 2005, 03:35pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Rizzo21
Great question to which the answers I am all ears. I'm a real greenhorn to the world of officiating. My question is: if this call is made, what is the official foul called in this case? I've had to forget all the false definitions I learned as a casual fan ("over the back", "hacking", etc.) and must now learn to narrow my focus to the APPROVED fouls and their related signals.

Just don't go to the table and slap it saying, "I've got a walk here," after a travel, ala your namesake.

jeffpea · #8 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 19, 2005, 04:04pm

The blocked shot is one of the crowd-pleasing plays in a game (like the dunk, a great pass, etc.). If a defender gets his hand on the ball for a block, I'm going to let some contact pass that I would not otherwise.

Think about it - when a shot is blocked, everyone focuses on the ball (and where it went) and NOT the shooter who may or may not have fallen because of the contact. During a blocked shot, if I've got the shooter on the floor (depending on contact) - then I'm probably going to pass on the call. If the same scenario happens but the shooter and defender are BOTH on the floor, then I'll have a foul the vast majority of the time.

IMHO, the higher the level of play (HS, college, pro), the more contact you can allow on a block shot.

blindzebra · #9 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 19, 2005, 04:25pm

Quote:

Originally posted by jeffpea
The blocked shot is one of the crowd-pleasing plays in a game (like the dunk, a great pass, etc.). If a defender gets his hand on the ball for a block, I'm going to let some contact pass that I would not otherwise.

Think about it - when a shot is blocked, everyone focuses on the ball (and where it went) and NOT the shooter who may or may not have fallen because of the contact. During a blocked shot, if I've got the shooter on the floor (depending on contact) - then I'm probably going to pass on the call. If the same scenario happens but the shooter and defender are BOTH on the floor, then I'll have a foul the vast majority of the time.

IMHO, the higher the level of play (HS, college, pro), the more contact you can allow on a block shot.

So we should no-call it to please the crowd and we can get away with it because everyone is ball watching, brilliant.

Jurassic Referee · #10 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 19, 2005, 04:34pm

Quote:

Originally posted by alfreedog

A1 is going up for a lay up and B1 is trailing the play, as A1 places the ball on the backboard B1 blocks the shot but in turn makes body contact with A1 and displaces his body so he in turns hits the floor. Foul or incidental contact?

Lah me.

NFHS case book 4.19.3SitB play tells you how the FED wants this exact same play called. NCAA supervisors also will give out their own philosophies to their groups. Different conferences allow different levels of contact.

Why are so many people trying to apply NBA philosophies to lower level games? In the high school game, it's a foul if the contact makes the shooter hit the deck. Too much contact, you have to maybe think about intentional, but that one is judgement. The purpose and intent of the rule is to protect an airborne shooter when he's at his utmost vulnerability. If you let defenders knock airborne shooters on their a$$, then you aren't protecting them at all imo.

JRutledge · #11 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 19, 2005, 04:41pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Why are so many people trying to apply NBA philosophies to lower level games? In the high school game, it's a foul if the contact makes the shooter hit the deck. Too much contact, you have to maybe think about intentional, but that one is judgement. The purpose and intent of the rule is to protect an airborne shooter when he's at his utmost vulnerability. If you let defenders knock airborne shooters on their a$$, then you aren't protecting them at all imo.

Well that is still a judgment call. And I can read a lot of things in the casebook you or I would never call. So using the casebook in this case is not going to solve this play. This is just a philosophy, not a one size fits all application.

Peace

jeffpea · #12 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 19, 2005, 04:45pm

Blindzebra - I think you'll notice the "general-ness" (to make up a word) of my comments. We're talking about a judgement play....a "you have to be there to see it" situation. I'm sure you'll agree that every time a shooter falls down it is not the result of contact by a defender. You'll also agree that there are very few block shots in a game where there is absolutely no contact by the defender on any part of the shooters' body.

All I'm simply saying is that I will give the defender more leeway on contact during a blocked shot if the defender gets a large portion of the ball or even gets the ball cleanly.

JRutledge · #13 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 19, 2005, 04:53pm

I have to totally agree with Jeff on this one. Show me a block (especially in the boy's game) where there is no contact, and I will show you a game that does not resemble basketball. I have yet to see a 6'8" center not make contact any contact on a block shot. I have called fouls where no one fell to the floor. I agree that maybe we should not call a foul just to please the fans, but are we not pleasing the fans when we call a foul because a player hit the floor hard? We have to use our judgment to decide why they hit the floor.

Peace

Jurassic Referee · #14 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 19, 2005, 05:06pm

Quote:

Originally posted by jeffpea

All I'm simply saying is that I will give the defender more leeway on contact during a blocked shot if the defender gets a large portion of the ball or even gets the ball cleanly.

Why? The amount of body contact by the defender was sufficient enough to put the shooter on his butt in both cases, wasn't it? What difference does it really make whether the defender got the ball or not? He still ended up putting the shooter into the third row with the body contact in either case, didn't he? Why is one a foul and the other one ain't then? That doesn't make any sense to me.

Maybe in the NBA you let it go. Maybe-but I've seen fouls called in the NBA where a defender got all ball but also annihilated the shooter at the same time. Anywhere else though it's usually a foul if you knock the shooter down with body contact. Note that we are not talking about cases where the force of the actual block on the ball knocks a player down- but cases where the actual body contact puts the shooter down.

Question: If a jumpshooter goes straight up and lets a 3 go--and a defender runs at him, gets a finger on the shot after it left the shooter's hands- and then bangs into the shooter and knocks him on his a$$, is everyone gonna let that one go too? If you aren't, then please explain the difference to me from that play to the one that we're discussing. Iow, if the defender didn't bang into the shooter, then the shooter wouldn't have ended up on his butt.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jul 19th, 2005 at 06:09 PM]

canuckrefguy · #15 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 19, 2005, 05:20pm

I don't think Rut's saying you NEVER call a foul, but only that there are cases where a no-call might be okay.

There are several degrees of "hitting the floor", and we need to witness it before making a call, I think.

I had a play at this tournament recently:

A1 on a fast break, goes up for layup, and B1, a taller player, gets a piece of it and blocks it. I was ready to no-call it until B1's shoulder bumped A1 on the way down, causing him to hit the "stanchion" (

there, I used the word - are you happy Camron, Juulie, Chuck, and Bob?).

I remember it seeming like an eternity between the ball getting blocked, and the defender hitting the shooter. No one on the floor complained, no coaches complained.

And, for what it's worth (which is not much), the crowd let out a huge "OHHHHH" in applause after the block - but did not express any disapproval after I called the foul.

Bottom line here is this is one of those ones you just gotta see.