Article pointing finger at Racist Referees

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Are you really suggesting that the officials match the demographics of the players?

On many levels my answer is yes. Why is officiating different than other aspects of life? My first job out of college I was hired to work in a community that mirrored the people I would be working with on a daily basis. I am sure that was done too for the reasons this article was written.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Perhaps by selecting officials simply by the color of their skin....just to make the number match? If so, fine, but in the order of consistency and equality, do you also suggest that the the players match the demographics of the area the team represents? That teams can only have players in the same percentages as their school or region?

What I am actually considering is you consider everything. Where people live, experience, conferences the officials are from, physical fitness, big game history or any number of things we talk about here as "qualifications." I do not see the harm in looking for diverse crews to work certain games if the result is to give an appearance of fairness.

Cameron, I have worked several games with an all-Black crew. It is amazing in this day and age the amount of comments good and bad that were made about it. When I watch a game on TV or in the playoffs and I see a crew that looks nothing like the players on the floor, no one bats and eye. Even the officials look little like the participants of the fans in the stands. I do not understand why that same consideration cannot be extended to others. To me that is a fair to consider races as one of many factors. I did not say exclude anyone or to never have situations where officials do not reflect who is on the court. I just think there are those in decision making positions that can look for other officials that look more like the participants if possible.

I will say in my state there has been an effort to do just that. I am not saying that this is perfect or that you could not find more, but they are certainly not excluding people from the process. And yes, they consider geography, color, experience, conferences you work, and ratings to make those decisions. This is also not just anecdotal comment, there is some scientific evidence that shows this and the words from the people making those decisions have also made references to those things. Their efforts have diminished the complaints that would take place to a minimum. A few years ago the diversity of the officials was a big deal in a post season game where a coach put it front and center. You do not hear that constant complaining anymore. Out of the 12 officials that worked the State Finals in my state for the Boy's Class 3A and 4A Tournament (big schools), 3 were Black. Out of the 8 teams, 5 were entirely Black teams from the Head coaches, all the players and the water boy. And the top players on the other teams were mostly Black except one school. And that school beat on of the teams out of that five by a last second shot by a player that was Black. Are you telling me that if our state wanted to have more than 3 African-American officials would have been unacceptable considering what the tournament looked like?

At the high school level I feel strongly that this is about education. This is not even the college level. I feel like the participants should have the right to see people in leadership roles that look like them. To me it sends a bad message if you say to the players, you can play the game, but when it comes to running the game you cannot participate. And that is why for younger people what happen in this past election was so emotional for some many.

Peace

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

On many levels my answer is yes. Why is officiating different than other aspects of life? My first job out of college I was hired to work in a community that mirrored the people I would be working with on a daily basis. I am sure that was done too for the reasons this article was written.



What I am actually considering is you consider everything. Where people live, experience, conferences the officials are from, physical fitness, big game history or any number of things we talk about here as "qualifications." I do not see the harm in looking for diverse crews to work certain games if the result is to give an appearance of fairness.

Cameron, I have worked several games with an all-Black crew. It is amazing in this day and age the amount of comments good and bad that were made about it. When I watch a game on TV or in the playoffs and I see a crew that looks nothing like the players on the floor, no one bats and eye. Even the officials look little like the participants of the fans in the stands. I do not understand why that same consideration cannot be extended to others. To me that is a fair to consider races as one of many factors. I did not say exclude anyone or to never have situations where officials do not reflect who is on the court. I just think there are those in decision making positions that can look for other officials that look more like the participants if possible.

I will say in my state there has been an effort to do just that. I am not saying that this is perfect or that you could not find more, but they are certainly not excluding people from the process. And yes, they consider geography, color, experience, conferences you work, and ratings to make those decisions. This is also not just anecdotal comment, there is some scientific evidence that shows this and the words from the people making those decisions have also made references to those things. Their efforts have diminished the complaints that would take place to a minimum. A few years ago the diversity of the officials was a big deal in a post season game where a coach put it front and center. You do not hear that constant complaining anymore. Out of the 12 officials that worked the State Finals in my state for the Boy's Class 3A and 4A Tournament (big schools), 3 were Black. Out of the 8 teams, 5 were entirely Black teams from the Head coaches, all the players and the water boy. And the top players on the other teams were mostly Black except one school. And that school beat on of the teams out of that five by a last second shot by a player that was Black. Are you telling me that if our state wanted to have more than 3 African-American officials would have been unacceptable considering what the tournament looked like?

At the high school level I feel strongly that this is about education. This is not even the college level. I feel like the participants should have the right to see people in leadership roles that look like them. To me it sends a bad message if you say to the players, you can play the game, but when it comes to running the game you cannot participate. And that is why for younger people what happen in this past election was so emotional for some many.

Peace

So you'd have no problem with picking only white officials then, to the exclusion of black officials, if the players on both teams are white?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

So you'd have no problem with picking only white officials then, to the exclusion of black officials, if the players on both teams are white?

That already happens. Why would I have a problem with this situation?

For the record that very thing happened to me personally in a conference I no longer work. Every game my crew had with this particular conference, we almost always worked this one school that had a Black coach, players and fans. It ended up causing a conflict because we could not get away from this particular school. When we were assigned two all white school and communities (well they had one African-American player between them) we were shocked. I soon stopped wanted to work that conference.

Peace

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

So you'd have no problem with picking only white officials then, to the exclusion of black officials, if the players on both teams are white?

That already happens.

[Berkut]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

That already happens.

He didn't ask if it happens, he asked if it was acceptable.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Berkut

He didn't ask if it happens, he asked if it was acceptable.

You have a person that is questioning the current system, and people here are defending that system. So it must not be a big deal to those that think everything is peachy.

Peace

[WreckRef]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You have a person that is questioning the current system, and people here are defending that system. So it must not be a big deal to those that think everything is peachy.

Peace

From what I've read, it sounds like you are an advocate for having refs officiate their own race more often than not. So what happens to me since I'm Asian, do I not get to officiate at all since probably less than 1% of players are Asian? Should I only ref 1% of the total number of games?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by WreckRef

From what I've read, it sounds like you are an advocate for having refs officiate their own race more often than not. So what happens to me since I'm Asian, do I not get to officiate at all since probably less than 1% of players are Asian? Should I only ref 1% of the total number of games?

Did you actually read what I said?

Peace

[Berkut]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You have a person that is questioning the current system, and people here are defending that system. So it must not be a big deal to those that think everything is peachy.

Peace

You are avoiding the question.

Not accepting the claim that we should practice racism in officiating selection in one particular direction is not "defending the current system" or claiming everything is "peachy". Those are you straws.

So - is it ok or not if assigners decide that they should preferentially select white officials over black officials based on some criteria having nothing to do with the competency of the officials in question?

That deserves an answer regardless of whether you think it happens, or regardless of whether someone or anyone thinks that it is peachy if in fact it does happen.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Berkut

You are avoiding the question.

Let me make something very clear. I love these discussions. These discussions are conversations I have often and like having. I am not afraid of saying what I feel on them. I do not need to avoid any question. The reality is that people live in a different life perspective and these things shock them because they never have to face these situations head on.

Originally Posted by Berkut

Not accepting the claim that we should practice racism in officiating selection in one particular direction is not "defending the current system" or claiming everything is "peachy". Those are you straws.

I do not know how it is racism to have people that look like the people participating. Racism is a belief in superiority, not a practice to hire people that look like everyone that is involved. And if the players of one team are all Black, I do not see why it has to be racism to suggest one of the officials can look like them. You are telling me there was not one guy available to make that happen? And was it racism to exclude all Black officials from a game where one team in a game is Black? Or are you saying that without a shadow of a doubt those were the best of the best and no one but those 3 could have worked the game?

Originally Posted by Berkut

So - is it ok or not if assigners decide that they should preferentially select white officials over black officials based on some criteria having nothing to do with the competency of the officials in question?

It baffles me when people do not actually read what people say. Did I not include places you work, where you live, experience, conference staffs you are a member or any number of factors?

Why do people say over and over here that officials should not work in towns or schools they are associated with, but you cannot even mention that if one of the officials looked like one of the teams, the complaining would go away? I know of an official that worked a Christmas Tournament game where he shared the same last name as one of the top players. People complained because of this fact and those did not realize that the two had no tie to each other. If people make that assumption based on nothing more than a last name, what do you think people start to accuse people of when the team that gets a close call or two is called by a crew that looks nothing like them?

Originally Posted by Berkut

That deserves an answer regardless of whether you think it happens, or regardless of whether someone or anyone thinks that it is peachy if in fact it does happen.

If you had read everything I said you would have known the answer. Also if you do not mind that someone accuses you of what is perceived as racism or racial bias, then keep doing what you are doing. Then there should be no reason to be upset by what people accuse you of. You are doing what works.

Peace

[Berkut]

I am curious if those who think that "affirmative action"-like activities in regards to officials should be engaged in in order to maintain "diversity" would also agree that the same practice should be engaged in with respect to the "racial" (understanding that the term "race" is largely fake) make up of the players as well.

Note that I am not asking whether this happens - I am asking whether they would advocate for it to happen. You know, in an effort to promote the appearance of diversity that is so important.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Berkut

He didn't ask if it happens, he asked if it was acceptable.

If it already happens and has been happening for years I guess it's acceptable already.

Being as I'm 1/2 Black (father, Republican) and 1/2 White (mother, Democrat; plus White step-mother, Democrat) I'm very comfortable any time this type of discussion comes up.

But I will make this comment based solely on my life's observations. When Blacks encounter discrimination and/or bigotry they get upset but they realize it's a part of life and are lot quicker to move on and realize "it is what it is". When Whites encounter discrimination and/or bigotry they react as if it's the worst thing that could ever happen to them and that someone should step in and make sure it nevers happens again. In other words, again based solely of what I have personally observed in my 45 years on earth, Whites have a lot more extreme reaction to being the victim of racism than Blacks do.

Originally Posted by Berkut

If the officer should lose his job, it should be because he is incompetent.

Whether he was incompetent because he is a racist, or incompetent while not being racist is both immaterial and almost impossible to ascertain.

But that race card is just too enticing to leave it unplayed.

It's very possible to ascertain. The officer has friends and co-workers. They know whether or not he is racist. The reason the so-called "race card" is brought out in these situations is because though African-American make up around 11-13% of the US population it seems as though African-Americans are involved in an over-whelming majority of these publicized incidents.

[IUgrad92]

Having known, and being good friends with the losing coach in the OP, I can guarantee that his focus was on his own teams' turnovers, missed free throws, and the number of defensive breakdowns that caused his team to lose that game. Much different than what would come from any parent, as Mr. Ray appears to be. And unfortunately, due to a public position he holds in the community, has a bigger platform to be able to spew from.

Likewise, I know one of the officials on that crew that Mr. Ray chose to target. He is from the Indianapolis area, works just as many 'diverse' high school basketball games as any other official in the state, and is regarded very highly amongst coaches and ADs in the Indianapolis area and where ever he works.

Unfortunately, Mr. Ray chose to take the stance that this team (his team) was a victim, instead of taking the stance that his team just didn't quite do enough to win. A stance that is seen all too much in today's society.

BTW, how does Mr. Ray know that the official said "he didn't want to impact the game"?? I seriously doubt Mr. Ray was allowed in the locker room after the game and I doubt any of the officials held a media conference after the game. How incredulous to make such a statement.

Mr. Ray, you deserve no less than to be given the status of 'fanboy'.

[Berkut]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

If it already happens and has been happening for years I guess it's acceptable already.

Lots of thing have happened before and happen right now that various people do not find acceptable. Again, avoiding the question.

Do YOU find it acceptable? Does Rut?

Quit avoiding the question by telling us how it is already happening. Is it or is not acceptable *with you* for assignors to preferentially choose "white" officials over "black" officials under some circumstances?

Being as I'm 1/2 Black (father, Republican) and 1/2 White (mother, Democrat; plus White step-mother, Democrat) I'm very comfortable any time this type of discussion comes up.

Congratulations. The only thing I am certain of about my race is that I am 100% human.

But I will make this comment based solely on my life's observations. When Blacks encounter discrimination and/or bigotry they get upset but they realize it's a part of life and are lot quicker to move on and realize "it is what it is". When Whites encounter discrimination and/or bigotry they react as if it's the worst thing that could ever happen to them and that someone should step in and make sure it nevers happens again. In other words, again based solely of what I have personally observed in my 45 years on earth, Whites have a lot more extreme reaction to being the victim of racism than Blacks do.

A nice generalization based on...what? How "white" does someone have to be to be certain that they will "have an extreme reaction"? Does the one drop white rule apply here?

I guess you are white, since you said you were 1/2 white - certainly you are just as white as you are black - do you find yourself having a "lot more extreme reactions"?

It's very possible to ascertain. The officer has friends and co-workers. They know whether or not he is racist.

They do? How could they tell? Is it possible to be a racist and not be obvious?

What difference would it make anyway - if we found out he was NOT obviously racist, would that make his actions acceptable? Is it ok to be incompetent, just as long as you are not "racist"?

What questions would we ask to find out if he was racist? Perhaps we could see if he makes overly broad and generalized comments about other based on this perceived "race" thing?

Would comments along the lines of "black people tend to react in a certain way, while white people react in some other 'extreme' way" suffice to ascertain if he is a racist? As an example, of course.

The reason the so-called "race card" is brought out in these situations is because though African-American make up around 11-13% of the US population it seems as African-Americans are involved in an over-whelming majority of these publicized situations.

And what does that tell us?

Is there *anything* that tells us beyond how terribly racist everyone is - anything at all? Is it *possible* that there are reason that have nothing to do with race or racism that explain why there are more "white" officials than "black" officials (and I defy anyone to come up with a coherent and objective definition of those terms to begin with)?

Does it bother you that while "black" people make up 11-13% of the population, they make up 100% of the starting corner backs in the NFL? Should we look into this to see if there is racism at work?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Berkut

Lots of thing have happened before and happen right now that various people do not find acceptable. Again, avoiding the question.

Do YOU find it acceptable? Does Rut?

Quit avoiding the question by telling us how it is already happening. Is it or is not acceptable *with you* for assignors to preferentially choose "white" officials over "black" officials under some circumstances?



Congratulations. The only thing I am certain of about my race is that I am 100% human.



A nice generalization based on...what? How "white" does someone have to be to be certain that they will "have an extreme reaction"? Does the one drop white rule apply here?

I guess you are white, since you said you were 1/2 white - certainly you are just as white as you are black - do you find yourself having a "lot more extreme reactions"?



They do? How could they tell? Is it possible to be a racist and not be obvious?

What difference would it make anyway - if we found out he was NOT obviously racist, would that make his actions acceptable? Is it ok to be incompetent, just as long as you are not "racist"?

What questions would we ask to find out if he was racist? Perhaps we could see if he makes overly broad and generalized comments about other based on this perceived "race" thing?

Would comments along the lines of "black people tend to react in a certain way, while white people react in some other 'extreme' way" suffice to ascertain if he is a racist? As an example, of course.



And what does that tell us?

Is there *anything* that tells us beyond how terribly racist everyone is - anything at all? Is it *possible* that there are reason that have nothing to do with race or racism that explain why there are more "white" officials than "black" officials (and I defy anyone to come up with a coherent and objective definition of those terms to begin with)?

Does it bother you that while "black" people make up 11-13% of the population, they make up 100% of the starting corner backs in the NFL? Should we look into this to see if there is racism at work?

Your reaction tells me alot about you. Very emotional as if someone has done something to you.

I don't go around worrying about what is or isn't acceptable. Why don't you answer your own questions? My answers aren't going to affect how you perceive this or any other situation. My opinions are based on my lifetime of experiences. And whether you like it or not my physical appearance allows me for hear things said by people who wouldn't say them in front of me if they knew what my parents looked like.

I, personally, have never really encountered any discrimination that has adversely affected me. But I'll let you guess which one of my 3 parents has relayed stories of racial discrimination that directly affected them. But I guess you would say those experiences are balanced out by racial make-up of cornerbacks in the NFL.