Article pointing finger at Racist Referees

[JRutledge]

Here is a way to simply take away any claims. Give officials of all levels similar opportunities, then these comments go away. Until you do that, you will have these claims.

There was a claim a few years ago by a coach that said the officials were not Black. Then the state started putting officials in situations to take away that claim.

I do not know the situation here, I do not know if the claim is valid. But when you have a sport where many of the top teams and players are of a certain race and you never schedule officials that look like the participants, then you have these claims.

There was a nationally televised game on TV a few years back with three Black D1 Officials. It was such an unusual thing in this particular conference. I sent a text message to one of the officials working the game showing how surprised I was by this occurrence. He responded to me, "Hey, we thought the same thing."

Peace

[BBall_Junkie]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Here is a way to simply take away any claims. Give officials of all levels similar opportunities, then these comments go away. Until you do that, you will have these claims.

There was a claim a few years ago by a coach that said the officials were not Black. Then the state started putting officials in situations to take away that claim.

I do not know the situation here, I do not know if the claim is valid. But when you have a sport where many of the top teams and players are of a certain race and you never schedule officials that look like the participants, then you have these claims.

There was a nationally televised game on TV a few years back with three Black D1 Officials. It was such an unusual thing in this particular conference. I sent a text message to one of the officials working the game showing how surprised I was by this occurrence. He responded to me, "Hey, we thought the same thing."

Peace

People can "Claim" anything they want. Claims in and of themselves do not inherently contain ANY truth what-so-ever. Talk is cheap so I could give a rip what any person says. This (imo ignorant, irresponsible and inflammatory) journalist can right as much ridiculous crap as he wants. If we give it any attention what so ever we give him exactly what he wants... a reaction. Its like my 5 year old son doing something to irritate his 8 yr old sister... he does if for the reaction. If she pays it no attention he stops. If this guy gets no reaction, he has submitted a totally useless article.

Lastly... race has absolutely ZERO to do with capability in the officiating ranks. Luckily most assignors recognize this.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BBall_Junkie

People can "Claim" anything they want. Claims in and of themselves do not inherently contain ANY truth what-so-ever. Talk is cheap so I could give a rip what any person says. This (imo ignorant, irresponsible and inflammatory) journalist can right as much ridiculous crap as he wants. If we give it any attention what so ever we give him exactly what he wants... a reaction. Its like my 5 year old son doing something to irritate his 8 yr old sister... he does if for the reaction. If she pays it no attention he stops. If this guy gets no reaction, he has submitted a totally useless article.

Lastly... race has absolutely ZERO to do with capability in the officiating ranks. Luckily most assignors recognize this.

Unless I missed something in the article posted, there was not claim of "racism." I think that was the "perception" of the people reading this article and posted it here.

Also this to me is just like any other discussion we have about perception. We get all upset if people claim we are bias based on where we live, who we know and how we know them. I can tell you that in many cases assignors and our state assign people to situations based on race and how the perceptions of the contest is officiating by the people working the games. It is a backdrop of many games. And it is taken completely away by putting on diverse crews which this article seemed to be about. And when you make an effort to have diversity in crews, then it is funny how that claim goes away.

This is no different than other seen biases and like many others biases this is probably not fair either.

I have no idea if what the author is claiming is remotely true and honestly do not care. This is no different than someone giving their opinion and this topic happens to be from another point of view. How many articles have we read here where the motives of the officials are called into question. And how many times have people here been the people calling those individuals motives or actions into questions. The difference is most of us here do not know the individuals or the actual situation involved.

No, it is about race, so let us completely dismiss all claims when we sometimes embrace other claims.

Peace

[dsqrddgd909]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Unless I missed something in the article posted, there was not claim of "racism." I think that was the "perception" of the people reading this article and posted it here.

"Year after year, children's dreams are deferred by questionable calls that appear to be biased" (Original article in question.)

The original author did not use the word racism. He did use the word biased, and he says in the rest of the article that the risk of bias increases without diversity. I wonder what the author would deem acceptable diversity in the following situations? If we have two mostly African-American schools? Two all whiite schools? Two schools with sizeable Native American populations? Asian? Gay? Transgender? Muslim? Hispanic?

I know there is racism. I know there are racist people in basketball. I think we should encourage all sorts of people to become refs. But who will decide what is a diverse crew?

On a more general point, are we ever going to come to the place that Dr. King talked about?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by dsqrddgd909

"Year after year, children's dreams are deferred by questionable calls that appear to be biased" (Original article in question.)

The original author did not use the word racism. He did use the word biased, and he says in the rest of the article that the risk of bias increases without diversity. I wonder what the author would deem acceptable diversity in the following situations? If we have two mostly African-American schools? Two all whiite schools? Two schools with sizeable Native American populations? Asian? Gay? Transgender? Muslim? Hispanic?

Why do people want to compare these issues with groups that are not involved? Forgive me but I doubt in Indiana in the Midwest there are "gay" or Trans gender schools. That is not the issue and this is why people can never have these discussions seriously because someone wants to avoid the real issue.

Originally Posted by dsqrddgd909

I know there is racism. I know there are racist people in basketball. I think we should encourage all sorts of people to become refs. But who will decide what is a diverse crew?

Funny, I did not read the word "racism" in this article. He talked about diversity. It has been said in many circles that certain individuals do not know how to referee certain groups of people because they have been exposed to those groups of people. For example where I live there are officials in certain areas that are not exposed to some of the best players and teams because they never work those teams during the season. Then when the post season comes, the officials that were working their games never see those teams or never get an opportunity to work in the post season at all. Now is that because of "racism." Maybe institutionally, but not personally or consciously there is an attempt to avoid diversity. Even in officiating where the sport is very diverse, many African-American officials are getting the short end of the stick. That being said, I have been exposed to places where there is a conscious effort to find and look for officials that are of all colors or genders. IT is not perfect, but it is a lot better than it used to be.

Originally Posted by dsqrddgd909

On a more general point, are we ever going to come to the place that Dr. King talked about?

If you think Dr. King was talking about not ever mentioning issues of race, you did not know much about Dr. King.

Peace

[jeffpea]

I would be willing to guess (I said "guess" not "wager" or "bet"...that's illegal - right Mr. Donaghy?)...that the author of this article was cheering for the team that lost.....

I am continually amazed at the degree to which emotional involvement (wanting one particular team to win) clouds the vision of and impairs the rational thinking by people watching a sporting event. If those who criticize the game officials are truly honest - I bet 90% of the time they would admit to wanting one team to win (and of course the "other" team won and thereby the impetus to criticize the officials...)

[Jesse James]

Originally Posted by jeffpea

I would be willing to guess (I said "guess" not "wager" or "bet"...that's illegal - right Mr. Donaghy?)...that the author of this article was cheering for the team that lost.....

I am continually amazed at the degree to which emotional involvement (wanting one particular team to win) clouds the vision of and impairs the rational thinking by people watching a sporting event. If those who criticize the game officials are truly honest - I bet 90% of the time they would admit to wanting one team to win (and of course the "other" team won and thereby the impetus to criticize the officials...)

The writer of the diatribe probably was cheering. He failed to mention in the article that he's the father of Fort Wayne Wayne's point guard.

But I'm certain he's completely unbiased.

[dsqrddgd909]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Why do people want to compare these issues with groups that are not involved? Forgive me but I doubt in Indiana in the Midwest there are "gay" or Trans gender schools. That is not the issue and this is why people can never have these discussions seriously because someone wants to avoid the real issue.




Funny, I did not read the word "racism" in this article. He talked about diversity. It has been said in many circles that certain individuals do not know how to referee certain groups of people because they have been exposed to those groups of people. For example where I live there are officials in certain areas that are not exposed to some of the best players and teams because they never work those teams during the season. Then when the post season comes, the officials that were working their games never see those teams or never get an opportunity to work in the post season at all. Now is that because of "racism." Maybe institutionally, but not personally or consciously there is an attempt to avoid diversity. Even in officiating where the sport is very diverse, many African-American officials are getting the short end of the stick. That being said, I have been exposed to places where there is a conscious effort to find and look for officials that are of all colors or genders. IT is not perfect, but it is a lot better than it used to be.



If you think Dr. King was talking about not ever mentioning issues of race, you did not know much about Dr. King.

Peace

I apologize for the hyperbole. But what criteria do we use for diversity? Do teams of Asians/Hispanics/Muslims/Native Americans also deserve diverse referee crews? What about teams of nerds? (As a former Capt. of the Nerd patrol this one is close to the heart).

The original author used the word bias, instead of racism. Did you understand that his use of the word bias meant a subconscious reaction vs. the conscious act of racism? Can one ever become significantly less biased?

You challenged me on my reading of Dr. King. I admit to now being better informed. This link was a good summary I think. Misusing MLK Legacy and the Colorblind Theory

Is the US getting better or worse in terms of race relations? Are we making progress? Will race always divide us? What signs can one use to judge if we are improving or not?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by dsqrddgd909

I apologize for the hyperbole. But what criteria do we use for diversity? Do teams of Asians/Hispanics/Muslims/Native Americans also deserve diverse referee crews? What about teams of nerds? (As a former Capt. of the Nerd patrol this one is close to the heart).

Let us stop talking about diversity as if we are really talking about all those groups. The reality in most jurisdictions is basketball is likely played at higher levels amongst African-American and Caucasian players. And Muslim is a religion and I know people that are Muslim and no one knows it by looking at them.

I would think simply put officials on the game that looks like the participants. Now you do not have to do this in ever situation, but if an assignor or supervisor makes an effort, it is probably not hard to do. Obliviously this can be shaped by the area we are discussing, but you tell me that if they did not put more officials on these games being discussed, this article is not made?

Originally Posted by dsqrddgd909

The original author used the word bias, instead of racism. Did you understand that his use of the word bias meant a subconscious reaction vs. the conscious act of racism? Can one ever become significantly less biased?

If I recall, there are a lot of articles that question our biases or integrity as official. And it is a common back drop.

And in my last post season game, I had one team that is from an All Black area in the suburbs and another school that was in the city, but a private school that was still had mostly Black players. The private school is in the shadows of where the White Sox play and in a very non-white area.

The entire night there were comments about where we were from and what we were used to. The funny thing is I was the only Black official. Both my partners were Caucasian. I live in one of the less diverse areas in the suburbs. One of my partners lives in the city and works probably more city ball as a whole than I do. My other partner lives in a south suburb, but works in many places that it is clear there are not a lot of white players. And the vast majority of the crowd was Black. The entire night there were comments about where we were from or indirect comments about my race as it related to my partners. And it was assumed by only our race by fans that we were from places we obviously were not from or they did not realize where any of us worked games. And many of the comments from the suburban team, was that I lived in the city and had it out for the all-Black team. Or I was accused of being for the all-Black team and not for the private Catholic school. It became a joke during halftime and after the game. And this experience is more common than just in the post season.

Let me also say this. I was supposed to work at another playoff game in another area. Based on what I know the teams I would have had would have been between a public school and another private school, but the racial divide would have been different. There were some problems with some assignments in the place I ended up working and I was moved. The common assumption was that I was moved because I was African-American and they needed at least one Black official on the game I ended up working. Where as the place I came from this would not have been as much of a factor. Talking about these issues does not bother me and often is apart of my officiating life. And it is really the case in the sport of basketball.

Originally Posted by dsqrddgd909

You challenged me on my reading of Dr. King. I admit to now being better informed. This link was a good summary I think. Misusing MLK Legacy and the Colorblind Theory

Understand I consider myself kind of a MLK historian, because I was raised with King's speeches (I had a few books with just his speeches) and I had parents that grew up in that era and in the south of and civil rights movement. It kind of bothers me sometimes when people sum up MLK's life to one speech and takes the facts of that speech out of context.

Originally Posted by dsqrddgd909

Is the US getting better or worse in terms of race relations? Are we making progress? Will race always divide us? What signs can one use to judge if we are improving or not?

It is about the same if not worse, Because we cannot even have an honest discussion without people getting up in arms because there was even a brush of race being discussed. The man did not even mention racism, but you would think he committed a crime. And if he feels there is racism, so what. That is his opinion and many people feel there is racism in many aspects of society and sports have nothing to do with many of those cases. After all it is his opinion, just like people have opinions that someone who has never worked a game in certain areas cannot referee (very well). It does not mean the claim is true or valid. I just think the man was a little misguided and as usual he does not know the ins and outs of officiating. What else is new?

Peace

[Juulie Downs]

Originally Posted by dsqrddgd909

I apologize for the hyperbole. But what criteria do we use for diversity? Do teams of Asians/Hispanics/Muslims/Native Americans also deserve diverse referee crews? What about teams of nerds? (As a former Capt. of the Nerd patrol this one is close to the heart).

The original author used the word bias, instead of racism. Did you understand that his use of the word bias meant a subconscious reaction vs. the conscious act of racism? Can one ever become significantly less biased?

You challenged me on my reading of Dr. King. I admit to now being better informed. This link was a good summary I think. Misusing MLK Legacy and the Colorblind Theory

Is the US getting better or worse in terms of race relations? Are we making progress? Will race always divide us? What signs can one use to judge if we are improving or not?

You touch on one problem in this discussion which is to use the words "racism", "bias", "prejudice", and so on without distinction.

But beyond that, you are expanding this discussion in ways which would be good if we could get to them but on this board, they've been very difficult to really discuss. This just isn't the forum for it.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by dsqrddgd909

Is the US getting better or worse in terms of race relations? Are we making progress? Will race always divide us? What signs can one use to judge if we are improving or not?

Sure, things are better. Perfect, no...but certainly better. Anyone that says otherwise full of crap or being dishonest...ask them if they'd really like to go back to what it was like 50, 100, or 200 years ago.

All I have to do is look around my workplace and see a large number of non-whites working very well paying professional jobs...and I've been on the hiring team that hired many of them....based strictly on ability. They're also being equally well represented in management....in dramatically stronger numbers than the greater area's demographics. None of that would not have been the case 40 or 50 years ago.

[Brad]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Unless I missed something in the article posted, there was not claim of "racism."

You missed something.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Brad

You missed something.

Simple, show a quote.

Peace

[Brad]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Simple, show a quote.

Rut - if you can't see it, I'm not going to be able to explain it to you.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Brad

Rut - if you can't see it, I'm not going to be able to explain it to you.

I can see a lot of things, I am just wondering are you doing the same thing as the person from the article. Taking a situation and blowing it out of proportion. BTW, you can talk to me about this through PM if you do not feel comfortable.

Peace