Teammate's excessively swinging elbows causes a shot to be dead sometimes?

[bradfordwilkins]

Starting back up with some adult rec leagues before camp, thought I'd flip through the case book for a good old refresher.

And I can't for the life of me figure out the logic in 9.13.1 (I know its referencing 6-7-9 Exception D)

The ball has been released on a field goal try or tap by A1 towards A's basket (a) A2, or (b) B1, excessively swings arm(s) or elbow(s) without contacting an opponent. The ball goes through the basket.

In (a) the official will sound the whistle immediatley for a violation. The ball is dead, the goal is not scored.

In (b), the ball is dead when the try ends. The goal is scored and Team A is awarded a throw-in at the spot closest to the violation.


I don't see how (a) is possible (except for the fact an exception exists). And my question then, does the same exception refer to team control fouls away from the ball?

Example The ball has been released on a field goal try or tap by A1 towards A's basket. Away from the basket after the release but before the try is successful, A2 illegally displaces B1 (boxing out several feet backwards/knocking down B1). The basket is good...

Does the basket count?

It is NOT a team control foul right? So if B was in the bonus, B1 would shoot?

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by bradfordwilkins

Starting back up with some adult rec leagues before camp, thought I'd flip through the case book for a good old refresher.

And I can't for the life of me figure out the logic in 9.13.1 (I know its referencing 6-7-9 Exception D)

The ball has been released on a field goal try or tap by A1 towards A's basket (a) A2, or (b) B1, excessively swings arm(s) or elbow(s) without contacting an opponent. The ball goes through the basket.

In (a) the official will sound the whistle immediatley for a violation. The ball is dead, the goal is not scored.

In (b), the ball is dead when the try ends. The goal is scored and Team A is awarded a throw-in at the spot closest to the violation.


I don't see how (a) is possible (except for the fact an exception exists). And my question then, does the same exception refer to team control fouls away from the ball?

ExampleThe ball has been released on a field goal try or tap by A1 towards A's basket. Away from the basket after the release but before the try is successful, A2 illegally displaces B1 (boxing out several feet backwards/knocking down B1). The basket is good...

Does the basket count?

It is NOT a team control foul right? So if B was in the bonus, B1 would shoot?

Correct. In this case, the basket counts since the release was before the foul by a non-shooter. There is no team control, so B shoots 1+1 or 2 if necessary.

[Adam]

Since there's no team control on a shot, there's no offense or defense, how do they differentiate on who swings the elbow? That seems inconsistent to me.

[bradfordwilkins]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Since there's no team control on a shot, there's no offense or defense, how do they differentiate on who swings the elbow? That seems inconsistent to me.

Exactly my conundrum! haha

I haven't had the elbow away from the ball situation ever (in fact, the few times I've had the excessively elbow situation at all was when the player controlled the ball and was trying to clear space excessively -- can't imagine someone just swinging their elbows around without the ball... but thats a mute point hah)

But I HAVE had the boxing out example and had been applying it with the basket counting and B1's ball (or shots in the bonus). Which JR is saying is correct... but the case is having me scratch my head lol.

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by bradfordwilkins

Example The ball has been released on a field goal try or tap by A1 towards A's basket. Away from the basket after the release but before the try is successful, A2 illegally displaces B1 (boxing out several feet backwards/knocking down B1).

Had this yesterday in a tournament game
A1 launches a 3 off the secondary fast break while the ball is on the way down, A4 just shoves B4 for weakside rebounding position, ball tinks on the rim and ball comes down on the weak side, tweat foul on A4, we go to the far end to shoot the bonus. Make that call all day long there is no team control so we are going with the enforcement of the foul to restart the game.

[bradfordwilkins]

Right, so why are elbows different? Because it is a violation?

Another one... A1 shoots, after the release but before the try is successful, A2 runs out of bounds to gain an advantageous position. Does basket count?

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by bradfordwilkins

Right, so why are elbows different? Because it is a violation?

ART.1 does not say anything about the player having the the ball so this theoretically could happen with a player just trying to create space, I would think it would involve contact on a rebound but I guess some numbskull could just start swinging elbows to create space.

SECTION 13 EXCESSIVE SWINGING OF ARM(S)/ELBOW(S)
ART. 1 . . . A player shall not excessively swing his/her arms(s) or elbow(s), even without contacting an opponent.


The ball does not become dead if the try has been released so even if A4 fouls B4 with ths shot in the air it counts and then we shoot at the other end.

So if the violation occurs while the try is in the air, the ball is not dead until the try is over.

PENALTYSection 13) The ball is dead when the violation occurs and is awarded to the opponents for a throw-in from the designated out-of-bounds spot nearest the violation. (See 6-7-9 Exception d)

SECTION 7 DEAD BALL
The ball becomes dead, or remains dead, when:

ART. 9 . . . A violation, as in 9-2 through 13, occurs (see exception d below).
EXCEPTION: The ball does not become dead until the try or tap ends, or until the airborne shooter returns to the floor, when:

d. Article 9 as in 9-3-2 or 9-13-1, occurs by an opponent.
NOTE: If A1'stry or tap is legally touched in flight, the goal counts if made, if the horn sounds before or after the legal touching. If the touching is interference or goaltending by A, no points are scored. If B violates, the points are awarded – either two or three depending on whether it was a two or three-point try or tap.

[Kelvin green]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

Had this yesterday in a tournament game
A1 launches a 3 off the secondary fast break while the ball is on the way down, A4 just shoves B4 for weakside rebounding position, ball tinks on the rim and ball comes down on the weak side, tweat foul on B4, we go to the far end to shoot the bonus. Make that call all day long there is no team control so we are going with the enforcement of the foul to restart the game.

A4 shoves b4 and foul on B4... what did I miss?

[Kelvin green]

Originally Posted by bradfordwilkins

Starting back up with some adult rec leagues before camp, thought I'd flip through the case book for a good old refresher.

And I can't for the life of me figure out the logic in 9.13.1 (I know its referencing 6-7-9 Exception D)

The ball has been released on a field goal try or tap by A1 towards A's basket (a) A2, or (b) B1, excessively swings arm(s) or elbow(s) without contacting an opponent. The ball goes through the basket.

In (a) the official will sound the whistle immediatley for a violation. The ball is dead, the goal is not scored.

In (b), the ball is dead when the try ends. The goal is scored and Team A is awarded a throw-in at the spot closest to the violation.


I don't see how (a) is possible (except for the fact an exception exists). And my question then, does the same exception refer to team control fouls away from the ball?

This is where you have to know all the definitions and related sections. The rules specifically state that swinging elbows cause the ball to become dead with the exceptions in rule 6-7

The rule specifically states

Rule 9-13

The ball is dead when the violation occurs and is
awarded to the opponents for a throw-in from the designated out-of-bounds
spot nearest the violation. (See 6-7-9 Exception d)

Rule 6-7

SECTION 7 DEAD BALL
The ball becomes dead, or remains dead, when:
ART. 1 . . . A goal, as in 5-1, is made.
ART. 2 . . . It is apparent the free throw will not be successful on a:
a. Free throw which is to be followed by another free throw.
b. Free throw which is to be followed by a throw-in.
ART. 3 . . . A held ball occurs, or the ball lodges between the backboard and
ring or comes to rest on the flange.
ART. 4 . . . A player-control or team-control foul occurs.
ART. 5 . . . An official’s whistle is blown (see exceptions a and b below).
ART. 6 . . . Time expires for a quarter or extra period (see exception a below).
ART. 7 . . . A foul, other than player- or team-control, occurs (see exceptions
a, b and c below).
ART. 8 . . . A free-throw violation by the throwing team, as in 9-1, occurs.
ART. 9 . . . A violation, as in 9-2 through 13, occurs (see exception d below).
EXCEPTION: The ball does not become dead until the try or tap ends, or until the airborne
shooter returns to the floor, when:
a. Article 5, 6, or 7 occurs while a try or tap for a field goal is in flight.
b. Article 5 or 7 occurs while a try for a free throw is in flight.
c. Article 7 occurs by any opponent of a player who has started a try or tap for goal (is in the act of shooting) before the foul occurred, provided time did not expire before the ball was in flight. The trying motion must be continuous and begins after the ball comes to rest in the player’s hand(s) on a try or touches the hand(s) on a tap, and is completed when the ball is clearly in flight. The trying motion may include arm,
foot or body movements used by the player when throwing the ball at his/her basket.
d. Article 9 as in 9-3-3(OOB for unauthroized reason) or 9-13-1, (swinging elbows)occurs by an opponent. (emphasis added)

The rules committe wants to penalize swinging of the elbows. (and running out of bounds) However if the exception was not in the rule and the ball becomes dead on the violation, all a defensive team has to do to stop a score is to have a player run OOB or swing their elbows. The defense would be breaking the rules and get a huge advantage. Thus the excpetion.

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by Kelvin green

A4 shoves b4 and foul on A4... what did I miss?

fixed the post