"Wisconsin Refs" - 3 Person Question

[BearBoy]

Why in Wisconsin do they do first two rounds of post-season tournament in 2-person? Why not do all state tourney playoffs in 3-person?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by BearBoy

Why in Wisconsin do they do first two rounds of post-season tournament in 2-person? Why not do all state tourney playoffs in 3-person?

If some coaches and way too many officials had their way we'd all go back to working 2-person full time.

[GoodwillRef]

Originally Posted by BearBoy

Why in Wisconsin do they do first two rounds of post-season tournament in 2-person? Why not do all state tourney playoffs in 3-person?

Deb Hauser (WIAA) doesn't think we have enough quality 3-Person officials to work 3-person for the entire tournament...and she is right. She answered this question at a camp I was working at last summer.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

Deb Hauser (WIAA) doesn't think we have enough quality 3-Person officials to work 3-person for the entire tournament...and she is right. She answered this question at a camp I was working at last summer.

And you never will as long as schools are only using 2-person mechanics. Even your best 2-person officials need 3-person experience to become "good enough."

One season of 3-person would fix your problem.

[GoodwillRef]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

And you never will as long as schools are only using 2-person mechanics. Even your best 2-person officials need 3-person experience to become "good enough."

One season of 3-person would fix your problem.

I would disagree...just because you work 15-20 games with 3 officials on the court doesn't mean you have a enough quality officials to put 3 officials on a tournament game. How many games did you work 3-person before you thought you really had a good grasp on who the system works?

[chartrusepengui]

are you saying we don't have enough "quality" officials to do 3 man for entire tournament series - even splitting half and half on 2 nights, or we don't have enough officials with 3 person training and experience? Big difference in this

[GoodwillRef]

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

are you saying we don't have enough "quality" officials to do 3 man for entire tournament series - even splitting half and half on 2 nights, or we don't have enough officials with 3 person training and experience? Big difference in this

I think if we split it into 2 days we might have enough...what I was commenting on was if we went 3 person for the entire state for 1 year doesn't mean they will all be quality trained 3-person officials.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

I think if we split it into 2 days we might have enough...what I was commenting on was if we went 3 person for the entire state for 1 year doesn't mean they will all be quality trained 3-person officials.

Even with a good plan, it won't be seamless. But we don't have a plan, let alone a good one.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

I think if we split it into 2 days we might have enough...what I was commenting on was if we went 3 person for the entire state for 1 year doesn't mean they will all be quality trained 3-person officials.

Quality enough for a first round playoff game? I think so. Quality enough for the finals? You don't need as many.

[chartrusepengui]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

I think if we split it into 2 days we might have enough...what I was commenting on was if we went 3 person for the entire state for 1 year doesn't mean they will all be quality trained 3-person officials.

Gotcha - I agree. I don't agree with Snagwells though - what makes a first round game any less important than a final? One and done baby! 1st round games deserve the same quality as finals IMHO

[Rich]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

Deb Hauser (WIAA) doesn't think we have enough quality 3-Person officials to work 3-person for the entire tournament...and she is right. She answered this question at a camp I was working at last summer.

She is right, but the state (IMO) has failed to push hard enough in the direction of 3-person officiating.

(1) Mandate 3-person for all varsity games

(Amazing how not a single varsity football game is worked 4-person, even when the schools involved pass 10 times between them the ENTIRE game.)

(2) Suggest a pay structure for 2-3 years where the officials have to take a 3-for-2 deal for the first 2 or so years and this gives the schools time to figure out how to pay the extra $1300 or so that it would take to cover 22 varsity games (11 boys, 11 girls).

(3) The conferences should simply say: "For the next 2 seasons, we're hiring 3 officials and we are paying $40 per. Either you work it or you don't. Please let us know where you've received state-approved 3-person training." If the officials aren't willing to do this, hire people who are. Deal with the pain of transition and acknowledge that it won't be seamless.

(4) Restructure the playoffs so that half the first round is played on Tuesday and half on Wednesday. Do the same with the second round. Problem eliminated. You do not need to have every girls' team in the state playing on Tuesday February 26.

It's easy to say "there aren't enough good officials." The hard thing is to think outside the box and fix the problem with the goal being 3-person in every varsity game in the state within 3 years.

(It'll never happen.)

And the state should support those who WANT to work 3-person. Last season I worked a boys varsity game with a guy who spent the entire time there complaining about 3-person. He rotated ONCE the entire game (which was one more time than the other guy, while I kept annoying them by rotating whenever the play dictated, sometimes multiple times in a trip). Kept saying how he can't wait until they go back to 2-man. Then I turn on the state tourney and he's working. Gotta love it.

[BearBoy]

You mean WISCONSIN doesn't have enough "good" officials to ref 3-person? What a sack of crap - How do they train officials? Has there been any proactivity by the state association? No college experienced officials to help advocate for 3-person at HS varsity level during the season. Has WIAA "dropped the ball" on this issue? Too bad for the kids!

Does the state association train their refs like some substitute phy. ed. teachers do, when they just "roll the ball out" and let the participants figure it out? Sounds pretty backwards to me! Too bad for the kids!

When does Wisconsin move into the 21st Century?

Originally Posted by RichMSN

She is right, but the state (IMO) has failed to push hard enough in the direction of 3-person officiating.

(1) Mandate 3-person for all varsity games

(Amazing how not a single varsity football game is worked 4-person, even when the schools involved pass 10 times between them the ENTIRE game.)

(2) Suggest a pay structure for 2-3 years where the officials have to take a 3-for-2 deal for the first 2 or so years and this gives the schools time to figure out how to pay the extra $1300 or so that it would take to cover 22 varsity games (11 boys, 11 girls).

(3) The conferences should simply say: "For the next 2 seasons, we're hiring 3 officials and we are paying $40 per. Either you work it or you don't. Please let us know where you've received state-approved 3-person training." If the officials aren't willing to do this, hire people who are. Deal with the pain of transition and acknowledge that it won't be seamless.

(4) Restructure the playoffs so that half the first round is played on Tuesday and half on Wednesday. Do the same with the second round. Problem eliminated. You do not need to have every girls' team in the state playing on Tuesday February 26.

It's easy to say "there aren't enough good officials." The hard thing is to think outside the box and fix the problem with the goal being 3-person in every varsity game in the state within 3 years.

(It'll never happen.)

And the state should support those who WANT to work 3-person. Last season I worked a boys varsity game with a guy who spent the entire time there complaining about 3-person. He rotated ONCE the entire game (which was one more time than the other guy, while I kept annoying them by rotating whenever the play dictated, sometimes multiple times in a trip). Kept saying how he can't wait until they go back to 2-man. Then I turn on the state tourney and he's working. Gotta love it.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by BearBoy

You mean WISCONSIN doesn't have enough "good" officials to ref 3-person? What a sack of crap - How do they train officials? Has there been any proactivity by the state association? No college experienced officials to help advocate for 3-person at HS varsity level during the season. Has WIAA "dropped the ball" on this issue? Too bad for the kids!

Does the state association train their refs like some substitute phy. ed. teachers do, when they just "roll the ball out" and let the participants figure it out? Sounds pretty backwards to me! Too bad for the kids!

When does Wisconsin move into the 21st Century?

This is why I was licensed in Illinois and worked about a dozen games down there per season for 6 seasons. 3-person, 3-person pay, no big deal.

[Rich]

I found this old thread and I noticed a few things:

(1) I really miss Mick.

(2) Nothing has changed here. Not a thing.

And it's 3 years later. And the first 2 rounds are still 2-person. And some of the conferences that went 3-person have gone back to 2-person. And there's no real commitment to move the state towards 3-person officiating across the board.

I've heard an interesting proposal I'd get right behind. Right now, many conferences pay $120 for varsity officials and $80 for freshman and JV officials (2 per game). That's $280 per night, assuming one freshman team. Drop the pay for the varsity officials to $55 (that's $165 for a 3-person crew) and drop the freshman/JV pay from $40 to $30. It would cost the schools $5 more a night, TOTAL.

Before anyone thinks I'm against the FR/JV officials, let me point out that in *many* communities, the FR/JV officials do not join associations, do not attend camps, and do not have any desire to ever do more than work those preliminary games. In many cases, the officiating is beyond terrible and the only motivation for those guys is to get a paycheck.

For those who don't fit this bill, there will be many openings at the varsity level since every game will be played with 3 officials.

I'm sure I'll be back in 3 years pointing out that nothing has changed.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I'm sure I'll be back in 3 years pointing out that nothing has changed.

And that we still miss mick. Of course that'll be this time next year, and not 3 years from now.