"Wisconsin Refs" - 3 Person Question

[GoodwillRef]

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

are you saying we don't have enough "quality" officials to do 3 man for entire tournament series - even splitting half and half on 2 nights, or we don't have enough officials with 3 person training and experience? Big difference in this

I think if we split it into 2 days we might have enough...what I was commenting on was if we went 3 person for the entire state for 1 year doesn't mean they will all be quality trained 3-person officials.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

I think if we split it into 2 days we might have enough...what I was commenting on was if we went 3 person for the entire state for 1 year doesn't mean they will all be quality trained 3-person officials.

Even with a good plan, it won't be seamless. But we don't have a plan, let alone a good one.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

I think if we split it into 2 days we might have enough...what I was commenting on was if we went 3 person for the entire state for 1 year doesn't mean they will all be quality trained 3-person officials.

Quality enough for a first round playoff game? I think so. Quality enough for the finals? You don't need as many.

[mick]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Quality enough for a first round playoff game? I think so. Quality enough for the finals? You don't need as many.

MIchigan eased in with 3-whistle @ 1/4-finals and up.
Then went to Regionals and up
And finally went to the entire tourney.
I forget, but the process may have taken 5-7 years.

[chartrusepengui]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

I think if we split it into 2 days we might have enough...what I was commenting on was if we went 3 person for the entire state for 1 year doesn't mean they will all be quality trained 3-person officials.

Gotcha - I agree. I don't agree with Snagwells though - what makes a first round game any less important than a final? One and done baby! 1st round games deserve the same quality as finals IMHO

[GoodwillRef]

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

Gotcha - I agree. I don't agree with Snagwells though - what makes a first round game any less important than a final? One and done baby! 1st round games deserve the same quality as finals IMHO

Some of the boys first round match-up are really tough games.

[WIRef]

I think the question above was whether we have enough quality officials to do 3-person, or whether we have enough quality 3-person officials to do the tournament games? IMO, right now there are not enough quality 3-person officials to handle the first round sub-regional games all on one night. Splitting them over two nights would help. But weather in Wisconsin is very unpredictable, and it would be a scheduling nightmare trying to get games in before the next round comes. Not sure of the best way to handle the 3-person dilemma, but schools are really fighting it right now, due to budget problems. Also, I think we as officials in general can take some blame, because, in some instances, we have not been able to show that 3-person crews call that much better of a game than 2-person crews. That comes from the inexperience of some, along with having to work with officials you have not worked with before. I know the theory is that in 3-person you should be able to work with any other official. But the inexperience really shows for those that do mostly 3-person games. Just my thoughts.

[WIRef]

"But the inexperience really shows for those that do mostly 3-person games."

Sorry, this should have read 2-person games!!

[BillyMac]

95% of regular season games, here in the Land of Steady Habits, are worked by two officials. Three person games don't kick in until the state quarterfinals. Our local board had it's first, ever, three man clinic in December, 2008. This in the state with one of the highest per capita incomes.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by WIRef

I think the question above was whether we have enough quality officials to do 3-person, or whether we have enough quality 3-person officials to do the tournament games? IMO, right now there are not enough quality 3-person officials to handle the first round sub-regional games all on one night. Splitting them over two nights would help. But weather in Wisconsin is very unpredictable, and it would be a scheduling nightmare trying to get games in before the next round comes. Not sure of the best way to handle the 3-person dilemma, but schools are really fighting it right now, due to budget problems.

I think that is a lame excuse. This season will be the 11th since 1997 that the state just south of you has used 3 Person crews for all post season games. Our state made a commitment to using 3 officials and they did everything to train officials to the system. Of course there was an adjustment period for everyone, but it was not about quality of officials, it was about training and only training. You will never improve officiating by hoping that people get good enough. You have to make a commitment to make those better through training in camps or literature. In this state every team makes the playoffs and the post season is run in 4 different tournaments. We have over 5000 basketball officials but for the Regional Finals each level needs 192 officials to work the Championship. They use more in for other Regional games, but a solid number of officials to cover the post season.

Originally Posted by WIRef

Also, I think we as officials in general can take some blame, because, in some instances, we have not been able to show that 3-person crews call that much better of a game than 2-person crews. That comes from the inexperience of some, along with having to work with officials you have not worked with before. I know the theory is that in 3-person you should be able to work with any other official. But the inexperience really shows for those that do mostly 3-person games. Just my thoughts.

You just do not work games in the system and all of a sudden becomes an expert. You have to be given opportunities to work games in the system and that requires either camp opportunities or games during the regular season. I have been working 3 Person my entire career in come capacity and it takes a few years to learn. The training is so good here that there are things we do not even need to discuss like we once did several years ago. I credit this all to the state's commitment to the system and insisting on training the masses to learn the system. The IHSA did not just sit back and expect the system to be used and not put programs in to give officials an opportunity to learn in many cases. Now working 3 Person is like riding a bike. Of course there are bad officials, but it is not because of the use of 3 officials.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

Gotcha - I agree. I don't agree with Snagwells though - what makes a first round game any less important than a final? One and done baby! 1st round games deserve the same quality as finals IMHO

I'll agree first round deserves higher quality than regular season; but I disagree that you need the same quality official on a first round playoff game as you get in the finals. Even with 2-person, you're not getting that. You just can't.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

Gotcha - I agree. I don't agree with Snagwells though - what makes a first round game any less important than a final? One and done baby! 1st round games deserve the same quality as finals IMHO

In a state where everyone gets in, you can target certain games. A few years ago I had 18-2 against 2-18 and the game was a 40-point spread at the half. This was 1 against 16 in a sectional, I think.

Of course, I believe I worked a boys game about 4 years ago where the team got its first win (0-20 up till then) in the first round. And I've had two first round boys games that came right down to the last shot. I'll never forget the one where I had my hand up as the trail on a 3 at the buzzer (2 point game) and watched as the ball rattled out. I blew my whistle and everyone (including us) stood for a second or two to absorb what had just happened.

I love it when I get a first round game where the teams are close seeds playing one another. Last year, I had a boys 8/9 matchup that was outstanding and the visiting team pulled it out at the wire.