help with first year partner

[refinks]

Had a situation the other night that I'm questioning myself about. Boys freshman game, working with first year partner. Actually doing a pretty decent job, but got us into trouble at the end of first half. Visiting team is getting offensive rebound after offensive rebound, had about 5 putbacks, finally got one to go in the basket, partner is lead and he blows the whistle. I'm expecting an and one because I saw the shooter get hacked, but he points the other way. Visiting coach goes crazy, and I have no idea what the call is. I assume travelling and I let it go. Talking to partner at halftime, I ask him what he had, and he had a 3 second violation. Oh boy. I quickly give him a course on the three second violation, making sure he understands that the count resets after the shot, and in this situation there couldn't have been 3 seconds.

My question is, what could I have done differently had I known he had a 3 second violation to begin with? Would it have been proper for me to go discuss it with him and get the call right? Then if so, obviously we can't give the basket and the and one to the visiting team, as this would not have been fair to the home team, as neither one of us initially had a foul call. The only solution i can think of would be go inadvertant whistle and go to the arrow. Is that correct?

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by refinks

Had a situation the other night that I'm questioning myself about. Boys freshman game, working with first year partner. Actually doing a pretty decent job, but got us into trouble at the end of first half. Visiting team is getting offensive rebound after offensive rebound, had about 5 putbacks, finally got one to go in the basket, partner is lead and he blows the whistle. I'm expecting an and one because I saw the shooter get hacked, but he points the other way. Visiting coach goes crazy, and I have no idea what the call is. I assume travelling and I let it go. Talking to partner at halftime, I ask him what he had, and he had a 3 second violation. Oh boy. I quickly give him a course on the three second violation, making sure he understands that the count resets after the shot, and in this situation there couldn't have been 3 seconds.

My question is, what could I have done differently had I known he had a 3 second violation to begin with? Would it have been proper for me to go discuss it with him and get the call right? Then if so, obviously we can't give the basket and the and one to the visiting team, as this would not have been fair to the home team, as neither one of us initially had a foul call. The only solution i can think of would be go inadvertant whistle and go to the arrow. Is that correct?

Maybe he had 3 seconds between putbacks. Leave it alone.

If you saw shooter get hacked, why didn't you grab it?

Reminds me of my first year and I call a foul in a freshman game and partner comes running over and offers information..........he didn't think it was a foul!!!

[BktBallRef]

[quote=refinks;582080]My question is, what could I have done differently had I known he had a 3 second violation to begin with? Would it have been proper for me to go discuss it with him and get the call right?

Yes, I think it would be appropriate but if he doesn't use the proper mechanic, I don't know how you're going to know.

Then if so, obviously we can't give the basket and the and one to the visiting team, as this would not have been fair to the home team, as neither one of us initially had a foul call. The only solution i can think of would be go inadvertant whistle and go to the arrow. Is that correct?

Why wouldn't you score the basket and give the ball to the opponent as the POI?

[refinks]

fullor, there was no way there was three seconds between put backs. as soon as the offense got the rebound they went right back up with it. I saw the hack and was going to blow it, but he had already blown his whistle. being he was right in front of the play, i yielded to him. He was not very good when it come to mechanics and signalling what he had when he blew the whistle.

bktballref, I had no idea what he called, I just assumed travelling. Had I known he had three seconds, I probably would have went and talked to him. I thought about that after you said that. We could have awarded the basket and given the ball to the other team for a throw-in. I'll have to remember that next time.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by refinks

bktballref, I had no idea what he called, I just assumed travelling. Had I known he had three seconds, I probably would have went and talked to him. I thought about that after you said that. We could have awarded the basket and given the ball to the other team for a throw-in. I'll have to remember that next time.

You've got to figure that something is weird. He waved off the basket, right? So maybe it was a foul on the shooter. But he didn't report a foul, right? That right there would have been enough for me to go investigate.

When he tells me what he's got, I tell him to go report an inadvertent whistle to the table, good basket, ball to opponent for a throw-in (POI).

[referee99]

Originally Posted by refinks

Had a situation the other night that I'm questioning myself about. Boys freshman game, working with first year partner. Actually doing a pretty decent job, but got us into trouble at the end of first half. Visiting team is getting offensive rebound after offensive rebound, had about 5 putbacks, finally got one to go in the basket, partner is lead and he blows the whistle. I'm expecting an and one because I saw the shooter get hacked, but he points the other way. Visiting coach goes crazy, and I have no idea what the call is. I assume travelling and I let it go. Talking to partner at halftime, I ask him what he had, and he had a 3 second violation. Oh boy. I quickly give him a course on the three second violation, making sure he understands that the count resets after the shot, and in this situation there couldn't have been 3 seconds.

My question is, what could I have done differently had I known he had a 3 second violation to begin with? Would it have been proper for me to go discuss it with him and get the call right? Then if so, obviously we can't give the basket and the and one to the visiting team, as this would not have been fair to the home team, as neither one of us initially had a foul call. The only solution i can think of would be go inadvertent whistle and go to the arrow. Is that correct?

If I have a young official I might offer this guidance pre-game:
"Partner, we're going to be working hard to be the best team out here tonight. When you have something, let me know. Tell me what you have and where we will inbound the ball. If you have a foul, I'll get your shooter for you and set it up. If you have a violation, give me a great mechanic and a good loud declarative statement about the violation. Let's stay focused on communicating with each other, and the communications with the table and the coaches will take care of itself."

re: knowing they screwed up the call, you have to pick your spots. Think about help on an out-of-bounds call by a partner. He might call "Red Ball", but from your angle you definitely saw Red touch last. I would blow, go to partner and tell them what I saw. It would be up to him to change his call.

I had a game with a first year a couple of weeks ago. A1 inbounding, throws it, B2 bats it back to A1 who catches it OOB. Partner declares "Team A ball". Benches and fans are howling. I blow, go over and offer what I saw, ask it that's what he saw, then offer that if A1 was OOB when they caught it, then the ball should go to Team B, right? Left it up to him and he changed it.

Now, with a 3-second violation in the sitch you described, if I knew the violation he called, I wouldn't make that move. I would get to them at the first opportunity so we can prevent it for the remainder, but they are going to live and die with that call.

[TheOracle]

You have to let him live and die with it. That how new officials learn. We all did it. You did the best thing you could have done, teach him what he did wrong at halftime. If you are effective, he'll never make that specific mistake again. If he doesn't learn from it, he won't last too long.

You can make calls for him during a game, but you cannot prevent him from making mistakes where he blows the whistle. That is the best thing for new officials to learn. You can recover from no-calls pretty easily, because they tend to be forgotten quicker as play goes on, or your partners can help. Bad whistles put you on the island where your partners only have so many chances to rescue you. Sometimes they simply cannot.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by TheOracle

You have to let him live and die with it. That how new officials learn. We all did it. You did the best thing you could have done, teach him what he did wrong at halftime. If you are effective, he'll never make that specific mistake again. If he doesn't learn from it, he won't last too long.

You can make calls for him during a game, but you cannot prevent him from making mistakes where he blows the whistle. That is the best thing for new officials to learn. You can recover from no-calls pretty easily, because they tend to be forgotten quicker as play goes on, or your partners can help. Bad whistles put you on the island where your partners only have so many chances to rescue you. Sometimes they simply cannot.

I disagree. This is a misapplication of a rule, something you don't have to be fishing in his pond in order to see. If I've got shot after shot and my partner comes out with a 3 second violation, I'm going to have a quick word.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I disagree. This is a misapplication of a rule, something you don't have to be fishing in his pond in order to see. If I've got shot after shot and my partner comes out with a 3 second violation, I'm going to have a quick word.

Agree. My quick word will be to offer him some information regarding the application of the three second rule, but I will leave the final call up to him, hopefully he will heed my advice, or he's going to get an earful at halftime, or after the game, and I'm not picking up the adult beverage tab after the game. We'll go Dutch treat. I'll let Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. explain that to all you youngsters. I understand that all of his dates were Dutch treat.

[TheOracle]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I disagree. This is a misapplication of a rule, something you don't have to be fishing in his pond in order to see. If I've got shot after shot and my partner comes out with a 3 second violation, I'm going to have a quick word.

I understand your view. Where do you draw the line? There is also no easy POI to fix this with. That's where I would elect to save something like that for a bigger mistake or something that can be easily fixed.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by TheOracle

I understand your view. Where do you draw the line? There is also no easy POI to fix this with. That's where I would elect to save something like that for a bigger mistake or something that can be easily fixed.

Sure there is, the whistle came after a successful shot. Re-read the OP. POI is to count the basket and give the ball to the non-scoring team. It doesn't get any clearer than that.

[jeschmit]

Originally Posted by TheOracle

You have to let him live and die with it. That how new officials learn. We all did it. You did the best thing you could have done, teach him what he did wrong at halftime. If you are effective, he'll never make that specific mistake again. If he doesn't learn from it, he won't last too long.

I disagree as well. What is the ultimate point while officiating? Get the play right! If you know in your mind that something your partner did is completely wrong, you and your "team" will look much better if you come together, figure out what the questionable call was and get it right. When I first started officiating, I had an over and back call that I made incorrectly, and my partner (who was much more experienced at the time) came in and talked with me about what happened. I then owned up to having an IW, and we continued play. I think that the appearance of getting the play right is much more important in the coaches' minds than letting your partner live and die on his/her own. Besides, they will learn what they did wrong whether you let them live and die or if you help them out at the time.

However, this doesn't apply to judgment calls that your partner may make that are questionable. They will have to live and die on calls dealing with their judgment and they will have to explain their reasoning to coaches.

[TheOracle]

Originally Posted by jeschmit

I disagree as well. What is the ultimate point while officiating? Get the play right! If you know in your mind that something your partner did is completely wrong, you and your "team" will look much better if you come together, figure out what the questionable call was and get it right. When I first started officiating, I had an over and back call that I made incorrectly, and my partner (who was much more experienced at the time) came in and talked with me about what happened. I then owned up to having an IW, and we continued play. I think that the appearance of getting the play right is much more important in the coaches' minds than letting your partner live and die on his/her own. Besides, they will learn what they did wrong whether you let them live and die or if you help them out at the time.

However, this doesn't apply to judgment calls that your partner may make that are questionable. They will have to live and die on calls dealing with their judgment and they will have to explain their reasoning to coaches.

I would agree that fixing an OOB is much easier. You have a distinct point of interruption from which to work from. You simply give th eball to the team that has the mistaken violation called against them.

In this situtation, how do you fix it? Ball went in. You give them the basket? The ball underneath? I don't see a POI there to fix this cleanly. That was why I would have let it go and counseled him later. It's a tough deal.

[jeschmit]

Originally Posted by TheOracle

In this situtation, how do you fix it? Ball went in. You give them the basket? The ball underneath? I don't see a POI there to fix this cleanly. That was why I would have let it go and counseled him later. It's a tough deal.

I guess it could be a HTBT sitch. If you know for sure that the whistle went early (before the shot), then get it right and go with POI. If it's close, go with your gut instincts. It's tough, but I think that I would want to get this right. Oh yeah, and be ready to explain all of this to the coaches because they are going to be confused as h3ll!

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by TheOracle

You can make calls for him during a game, but you cannot prevent him from making mistakes where he blows the whistle. That is the best thing for new officials to learn.

No, but I can help him if he does.

And, if you go to him, ask him what he had, allow him to correct, he'll remember if better the next time.