Elbow Swinging II

[BubbaRef]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

contact violation?????

Sorry cleaned it up for ya...

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by BubbaRef

Sorry cleaned it up for ya...

You gotta watch out for these guys (and gals)...they ain't kidding around if you use, like, bad English and stuff.

Congrats on what looked like a great championship game! #1 team gets beat by 1.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BubbaRef

I had this same exact play in my girls 3a regional last night and I ended up calling an offensive foul because the offense made contact with the defense with her elbow and the defenders chin. The defender went down and the call had to be made. The coach of the team I called the foul on said nothing when I made it. Also talked to a state finals official that was at the game and he said it was an excellent call also.

I would think that if some kind of contact is made in the scenario's in this thread something has to be called a foul on defense or offense, or if you have excessive swinging then call a violation. I would hate for this to have happened and nothing called.

Let me ask you, then. A1 gets a rebound, B1 standing, leaning over A1 invading his rightful space. A1 pivots, elbows out but not swinging them excessively, hitting B1 square in the jaw with his elbow.

What are you going to call, since you have to have something?

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Let me ask you, then. A1 gets a rebound, B1 standing, leaning over A1 invading his rightful space. A1 pivots, elbows out but not swinging them excessively, hitting B1 square in the jaw with his elbow.

What are you going to call, since you have to have something?

Milles Lane to give an eight count?

[BubbaRef]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Let me ask you, then. A1 gets a rebound, B1 standing, leaning over A1 invading his rightful space. A1 pivots, elbows out but not swinging them excessively, hitting B1 square in the jaw with his elbow.

What are you going to call, since you have to have something?

Like I said if you have to call a foul on the defense then that is the call. If you are invading the space of the offense that would not be legal guarding position would it?

Then be prepared for the defensive teams coach to come unglued.

[BubbaRef]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

You gotta watch out for these guys (and gals)...they ain't kidding around if you use, like, bad English and stuff.

Congrats on what looked like a great championship game! #1 team gets beat by 1.

Tell me about it. Pretty harsh in here.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BubbaRef

Like I said if you have to call a foul on the defense then that is the call. If you are invading the space of the offense that would not be legal guarding position would it?

Then be prepared for the defensive teams coach to come unglued.

I'd come unglued, too. There was no advantage gained on this, the offended player (the offense here) was not hurt nor displaced nor impeded. It's a no-call by rule, and a lot easier to explain to the coach.

[BubbaRef]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I'd come unglued, too. There was no advantage gained on this, the offended player (the offense here) was not hurt nor displaced nor impeded. It's a no-call by rule, and a lot easier to explain to the coach.

Would leaning into the offense's rightful space be legal guarding position?

Wouldn't that be the same as if A1 goes up for a shot and B1 doesn't have his/her arms straight up and makes contact with A1's arm on the shot? Then you would have a foul on B1 for that wouldn't you?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BubbaRef

Would leaning into the offense's rightful space be legal guarding position?

Wouldn't that be the same as if A1 goes up for a shot and B1 doesn't have his/her arms straight up and makes contact with A1's arm on the shot? Then you would have a foul on B1 for that wouldn't you?

LGP is not relevant for determining if there was any advantage. LGP is not relevant to this play.

If it affects the shot, yes. If it doesn't affect the shot, then no. Not all contact is a foul, by rule there must be some sort of advantage for it to be a foul.

4-27-3 "Contact which does not hinder the opponent from participating in normal defensive or offensive movements should be considered incidental.

[BubbaRef]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

LGP is not relevant for determining if there was any advantage. LGP is not relevant to this play.

If it affects the shot, yes. If it doesn't affect the shot, then no. Not all contact is a foul, by rule there must be some sort of advantage for it to be a foul.

4-27-3 "Contact which does not hinder the opponent from participating in normal defensive or offensive movements should be considered incidental.

I have to disagree with you on LGP not being relevant. By the way I am taking what you said is that B1 is invading the space by leaning over, so that possibly means that A1 has to be leaning and not being able to stand straight and possibly not be able to make a normal basketball move there fore in my eyes B1 is gaining an advantage by doing this.

Maybe I am taking what you said out of context of what you mean. I think this is probably a call that has to be seen in actuality before you can make any call on it.

[Adam]

A1's pivot was not hindered. Upon contact, B1 recoils and A1 is able to complete his motion without hinderance.

By not relevant, I mean it's not relevant in determining whether or not the contact warrants a foul. It might be relevant in determining who is responsible for contact, but if there's no advantage, there's no foul.

[BubbaRef]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

A1's pivot was not hindered. Upon contact, B1 recoils and A1 is able to complete his motion without hinderance.

By not relevant, I mean it's not relevant in determining whether or not the contact warrants a foul. It might be relevant in determining who is responsible for contact, but if there's no advantage, there's no foul.

Ok then I understand where your coming from after these statements. Just from your initial post is what I was going on, but I am sure you meant that in your first post.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BubbaRef

Ok then I understand where your coming from after these statements. Just from your initial post is what I was going on, but I am sure you meant that in your first post.

Fair enough. I think LGP is overused. I'm seeing B1 standing stationary guarding A1, so LGP isn't really an issue.

[BubbaRef]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Fair enough. I think LGP is overused. I'm seeing B1 standing stationary guarding A1, so LGP isn't really an issue.

In our area most of the guys call advantage/disadvantage pretty much all the time. I know I call alot of it and try having players play through stuff when they can. But like I said I think this call would have to be made in person instead of trying to explain it on the net.

[bbcoach7]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

How close is she getting to the face; could be a T.

I'd guesstimate maybe 12-18 inches away.