Block/Charge call results in Floyd being ejected

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

I don't agree with the charge. Defender is still sliding in front of him when contact is made.

Is sliding laterally against the rules when the player isn't airborne?

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

Is sliding laterally against the rules when the player isn't airborne?

He can slide but he still has to get to the spot first and he didn't in my opinion.

[jdw3018]

Cool. I operate from the "if contact is in the torso, he got there first" in situations like this.

If the offensive player is airborne, there's the added element of when did he get there, but that's not applicable in this case.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

Is sliding laterally against the rules when the player isn't airborne?

yes it is illegal if he has yet to establish guarding position and then come in sliding and didn't beat the offensive player to the spot.

Badnewsref,

I would disagree with you in the mechanics of this play. The lead has the best look at the secondary defender and can better assess the lateral movement of the defender than the slot, although i still believe the referee got the play wrong.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

yes it is illegal if he has yet to establish guarding position and then come in sliding and didn't beat the offensive player to the spot.

I guess we're seeing different things, then, because the defender definitely faced the offensive player with both feet on the ground (establishing LGP) and IMO definitely beat the offensive player to the spot.

[fiasco]

LOL

The guard who fouled on the play had this to say:

"He's a great basketball coach, and he had all the right to do that. I thought it was a bogus call, he thought it was a bogus call, a lot of people thought the same."

[dahoopref]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

The L anticipated the call. He's two steps onto the floor before the defender even hits the ground. I don't agree with the charge. Defender is still sliding in front of him when contact is made.

Even so, Floyd's an idiot. The Pac-10 needs to sit him down a game.

Originally Posted by btaylor64

yes it is illegal if he has yet to establish guarding position and then come in sliding and didn't beat the offensive player to the spot.

Badnewsref,

I would disagree with you in the mechanics of this play. The lead has the best look at the secondary defender and can better assess the lateral movement of the defender than the slot, although i still believe the referee got the play wrong.

I tend to agree with both of your assessments of the play. An argument can be made for a PC foul as well but I think it was a block.

This is why I enjoy coming on this forum and discuss plays and philosophies with other officials.

A few of my other colleagues saw the play last night and we discussed the entire dichotomy of it all (please bare with me).

Here is another view of the incident from a different angle:

http://palestra.net/videos/play/21409

Officials in the Pac10 are given a rating by the coaches (right or wrong whether they should do this is entirely for another discussion). Through a reliable source, the coaches rating is about 30-40% of the conference ranking of the official. That is a huge chunk of an official's grade. The higher the grade, the more games you get (ie: more money). Officials do not want to be marked down and to me, they let Floyd get away with too much even prior to the block/charge play. Floyd was out of the coaching box multiple times during the game and it was not addressed. It was obvious the officials were trying to appease Floyd rather than deal with him. If you address Floyd, he will mark you down.

It also appeared to me that David Hall did not do enough to protect Randy Mcall from Floyd. As the "R" on the game, he should never had let Floyd even get close to Mcall when he was at halfcourt in the first place. Mcall issues the 2nd T as Floyd walks away. Mcall made a mistake of going to the table to report the T when Floyd was still yelling at Hall and Dick Cartmell. Hall then goes to the table and leaves Cartmell alone to deal with a yelling Floyd as Mcall tries to walk away. Floyd then walks back to Hall who is at the table. During the tirade, Hall is shown pointing at Mcall not once but TWICE; I don't know what was said but if I saw my partner pointing at me while a coach was yelling, I would be furious. Hall has his hand on Floyd's waist to calm him down in a friendly manner.

In my opinion, Hall should not have done anything or even been near the table until the situation with Floyd was addressed. Cartmell did the best he could to separate Floyd from Mcall but Hall (as the R) should've been right there as well.

To his credit, (right or wrong) Hall made a tough call against USC. It just appeared to me after the call, Hall was doing all he could to keep his high rating.

[jearef]

Great double whistle, great communication between L and C, and great call.

Moron coach.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

yes it is illegal if he has yet to establish guarding position and then come in sliding and didn't beat the offensive player to the spot.

Badnewsref,

I would disagree with you in the mechanics of this play. The lead has the best look at the secondary defender and can better assess the lateral movement of the defender than the slot, although i still believe the referee got the play wrong.

Ben,

I don't see how the L had the best look at the secondary defender when there was already a another defender directly in front of the lead.

[JugglingReferee]

The Team A player goes right to the C official and tries to make a case for something in his mind.

What I don't like is that this behavoir has trickled down this year in Basketball Ontario sanctioned games, to 9 and 10 year olds! I couldn't believe it when I saw it!

[IREFU2]

Okay, here is my 2 cents:

Lead - he did not have the best look at this play. I paused it right at the contact and the lead was looking at the back of the white defensive player. He was pinching the paint.

C - he had the best look at the play, looking between both the players and he "should" of had the fist crack at this play.

Now as i play the video back and forthe, right at the contact. Look at the C's left arm, it "appears" that he was going to call a block, but saw the lead punch it. This is why I dont give the appearence of any prelims from the outside. Replay the video and you make the desicion if there was the appearence of a prelim......

[Adam]

Originally Posted by IREFU2

Okay, here is my 2 cents:

Lead - he did not have the best look at this play. I paused it right at the contact and the lead was looking at the back of the white defensive player. He was pinching the paint.

C - he had the best look at the play, looking between both the players and he "should" of had the fist crack at this play.

Now as i play the video back and forthe, right at the contact. Look at the C's left arm, it "appears" that he was going to call a block, but saw the lead punch it. This is why I dont give the appearence of any prelims from the outside. Replay the video and you make the desicion if there was the appearence of a prelim......

I replayed it, and I didn't see anything. His right arm never started to come down, and I've never seen a college ref make a block signal with one arm.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Ben,

I don't see how the L had the best look at the secondary defender when there was already a another defender directly in front of the lead.

there was nothing in front of the lead! he pinched down and had the best look of lateral movement of both defenders that were near the play. In reference to block/charge plays you don't need to see between the players, you need to be able to see the lateral movement of the defender, and that can best be seen by the Lead, with the C having a pretty good look at it as well.

[doubleringer]

All right, I took time to watch it. I was a huge Floyd fan when he was at ISU and like the way his college teams play. I'd love to side with him on this, but I can't. It looked like a tough call and there really isn't anything he should have blown up about like that. There may be some history between he and the lead or something. Who knows?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

In reference to block/charge plays you don't need to see between the players, you need to be able to see the lateral movement of the defender, and that can best be seen by the Lead, with the C having a pretty good look at it as well.

I don't know if I agree with that but I'm pretty sure I know why you have that opinion. Had a play in camp this summer in which I was the Lead on a fast break. Crash was just above the opposite block but all I could see was the defender's back from my 'pinched down' position. I had no whistle and the 'C' took the play and called a PC. NBA ref/college supervisor told his observer I should have had a whistle. Observer (big dawg D1 official) disagreed with his boss and said I rightfully let the C take it b/c I was straight-lined and the play was on the opposite side of the paint.