The dreaded Block/Charge call!

kevin · #1 (**permalink**) Sun Jan 14, 2001, 07:15pm

Last night in the first period, Lead and Trail had a double whistle in the dual area on the court. Lead comes out with a block call and trail is calling a charge at the same time. I was the center official and immediately saw these two officials giving their signals. The problem was they didn't make eye contact before giving these signals. I quickly ran in and got the officials together to discuss how to handle it. The trail official said he had the foul and was going to take it. I, having seen both their signals go up at the same time, said you have to go with the double foul and go to the arrow. The Lead official agreed and both officials went to the table and reported their fouls. Both coaches agreed on this and we went on. You never want this to happen but if it does this is the only way to handle. Just remember, if you do have a double whistle, make eye contact before giving your signal. I love this game!

MattRef · #2 (**permalink**) Sun Jan 14, 2001, 07:27pm

I have a stupid question regarding this kind of situation. When both whitsles go off, whose call should it be? Do you simply defer to the official in whose area the infraction occurred, or do you both get together and decide how to do it, or always go with the double foul? This has confused me a bit and I was wondering. Thanks!
Matt

Mike Burns · #3 (**permalink**) Sun Jan 14, 2001, 09:35pm

How can this be a double foul on a block/charge? Either the deffensive player established a legal guarding position or not.
On the other hand, I understand the dilemma of the double whistle, but when we have a double whistle I do not give a prelimenary. I would confer with, or defer to, the official that has the primary.
One thing for sure, this is a sitch none of us ever want to be in.

Mlancaster · #4 (**permalink**) Sun Jan 14, 2001, 10:22pm

A tough situation we are all faces with at some time. The 2 officials need to quickly come togethr and make a FAST judgement. Normally, the final call should come from the primary official, but everyone will look bad on this one. Lesson learned......The "off ball" official should always freeze a moment before before making a signal. Tough to do, but it comes with experience.

Brad · #5 (**permalink**) Sun Jan 14, 2001, 10:45pm

Quote:

How can this be a double foul on a block/charge?

It is the rule!

BktBallRef · #6 (**permalink**) Sun Jan 14, 2001, 10:50pm

If both officials use the proper mechanics, this should never happen. Always stop the clock with a whistle and reaised fist. Make eye contact wtih your partner, especially when you have a double whistle. Don't go directly to the charge or block signal.

co2ice · #7 (**permalink**) Sun Jan 14, 2001, 10:55pm

Yes how can this be both? Sounds like a couple of guys forgot to check their egos at the door! Cover this stuff in your pregame (dont ask whats a pregame) it will go along way to making the game flow more smoothly and adding credibility to yourselves and the reffing business. I always tell my partner that if theres a whistle underneath we make eye contact to see if both whistles went, and if we do, trail had better be ready to yeild unless he saw somthing early.

BktBallRef · #8 (**permalink**) Sun Jan 14, 2001, 11:06pm

Quote:

Originally posted by co2ice
Yes how can this be both? Sounds like a couple of guys forgot to check their egos at the door! Cover this stuff in your pregame (dont ask whats a pregame) it will go along way to making the game flow more smoothly and adding credibility to yourselves and the reffing business. I always tell my partner that if theres a whistle underneath we make eye contact to see if both whistles went, and if we do, trail had better be ready to yeild unless he saw somthing early.

If both blow and give their prelim, you have no choice but to call a double foul. Perhaps both officials saw something different. Chances are one was wrong but that's of no consequence. Two officials saw the same play and had different interpretations of what happened.

A double foul can actually happen in this sitch. Suppose a defender moves underneath a dribbler for a block. At the exact same time, the dribbler hits the defender with a forearm to the head. Both players have fouled. It's no different than two players shoving each other in the low post. Double foul.

Even a good pregame can't prevent everything from happening!

co2ice · #9 (**permalink**) Sun Jan 14, 2001, 11:19pm

B-ballref: You state that "even if one is wrong that is of no consequence", thus I stand by my statement you'll add credibility to yourself and the reffing business to defer to lead in this situation. It does save a hassle. And yes it could be a simultaneous double foul. But I know my pregames have saved a lot of grief from occuring and I encourage everyone to get into the habit of having them every game.

Bradley Batt · #10 (**permalink**) Sun Jan 14, 2001, 11:21pm

Quote:

Originally posted by co2ice
B-ballref: You state that "even if one is wrong that is of no consequence", thus I stand by my statement you'll add credibility to yourself and the reffing business to defer to lead in this situation.

How do you add credibility to yourself by setting aside a rule?

BktBallRef · #11 (**permalink**) Sun Jan 14, 2001, 11:27pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Bradley Batt

Quote:

Originally posted by co2ice
B-ballref: You state that "even if one is wrong that is of no consequence", thus I stand by my statement you'll add credibility to yourself and the reffing business to defer to lead in this situation.

How do you add credibility to yourself by setting aside a rule?

And, why is it necessarily the lead's call?

Mike Burns · #12 (**permalink**) Sun Jan 14, 2001, 11:35pm

OK so I went to the case book and found that 4.19.7C says:

"Contact occurs between A1 and B1 after the release and before airborne shooter A1 returns to the floor. One official calls a blocking foul on B1 and the other official calls a charging foul on A1. Even though airborne shooter A1 committed a charging foul, it is not a player-control foul because the the two fouls result in a double personal foul."

So, first of all, good call Kevin. Secondly, I STILL don't understand how a play can result in a block and a charge since the defender either obtained a legal guarding position or he didn't.
I am thinking more along the lines expressed by BktBallRef: "A double foul can actually happen in this sitch. Suppose a defender moves underneath a dribbler for a block. At the exact same time, the dribbler hits the defender with a forearm to the head. Both players have fouled. It's no different than two players shoving each other in the low post. Double foul."
The offense did not commit a player-control foul in this case but a seperate foul while returning to the floor.

Bradley Batt · #13 (**permalink**) Sun Jan 14, 2001, 11:48pm

And, why is it necessarily the lead's call?

Good point.

Secondly, I STILL don't understand how a play can result in a block and a charge since the defender either obtained a legal guarding position or he didn't.

This is true. That is why the rule (more specifically, the case) is there. You can't really have both - that is, the play can't be both a block AND a PC foul. Period.

However, it can occur that both calls are made on the same play. In that case you have no option other than to go to the double foul - by rule.

BktBallRef · #14 (**permalink**) Sun Jan 14, 2001, 11:58pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Bradley Batt

However, it can occur that both calls are made on the same play. In that case you have no option other than to go to the double foul - by rule.

Just ask Curtis Shaw!

JugglingReferee · #15 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 15, 2001, 12:01am

Quote:

Originally posted by Mike Burns
OK so I went to the case book and found that 4.19.7C says:

"Contact occurs between A1 and B1 after the release and before airborne shooter A1 returns to the floor. One official calls a blocking foul on B1 and the other official calls a charging foul on A1. Even though airborne shooter A1 committed a charging foul, it is not a player-control foul because the the two fouls result in a double personal foul."

So, first of all, good call Kevin. Secondly, I STILL don't understand how a play can result in a block and a charge since the defender either obtained a legal guarding position or he didn't.
I am thinking more along the lines expressed by BktBallRef: "A double foul can actually happen in this sitch. Suppose a defender moves underneath a dribbler for a block. At the exact same time, the dribbler hits the defender with a forearm to the head. Both players have fouled. It's no different than two players shoving each other in the low post. Double foul."
The offense did not commit a player-control foul in this case but a seperate foul while returning to the floor.

I know it's a crazy situation. The BLARGE call, as it's called, was discussed here about two months ago - maybe a month ago. You can check it out - it was a great discussion. Search for the keyword BLARGE - you'll find it.

And, to answer your question, the case book has specifically stated how to handle this scenario. It's a double foul, go with the AP. You, as the U, U1, U2, or even the R and crew chief, are NOT in a position to change what has been done. Once both SIGNALS have been made, it's a double foul and possession using the AP. That's just the way it is.

..Mike