Travel violation???

[Raymond]

It's going on 2am, I've had a couple drinks, and I'm not busting out the rules or case book before I go to bed.

A1 jumps with 2 hands on ball to lay ball in basket. While A1 is in the air on the way up A2's shoulder hits the ball causing A1 to momentarily lose ball (both hands come completely off ball). While still in the air A1 regains complete control of ball but comes back to earth with the ball.


What say you?

[shishstripes]

I say violation. Don't have a casebook in front of me but I think about during an interrupted dribble (which I know is completely different) if it goes off a teammate that doesn't allow me to start a new dribble and defender didn't keep me from finishing a shot.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

A1 jumps with 2 hands on ball to lay ball in basket. While A1 is in the air on the way up A2's shoulder hits the ball causing A1 to momentarily lose ball (both hands come completely off ball). While still in the air A1 regains complete control of ball but comes back to earth with the ball.


What say you?

I say look at NFHS rule 9-5-3:- "A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of a pass or fumble which has then been touched, or been touched by, another player."

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I say look at NFHS rule 9-5-3:- "A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of a pass or fumble which has then been touched, or been touched by, another player."

Completely, irrelevant as this play doesn't involve a second dribble.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Completely, irrelevant as this play doesn't involve a second dribble.

Neither does case book play 9.5.1 if you stop after the shooter returns to the floor.

'Splain that.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

It's going on 2am, I've had a couple drinks, and I'm not busting out the rules or case book before I go to bed.

A1 jumps with 2 hands on ball to lay ball in basket. While A1 is in the air on the way up A2's shoulder hits the ball causing A1 to momentarily lose ball (both hands come completely off ball). While still in the air A1 regains complete control of ball but comes back to earth with the ball.


What say you?

We discussed this play a while ago. Jurassic said that it was a traveling violation for failing to release the ball on a pass or try after going airborne.
His case was supported by an old NFHS ruling that Bob Jenkins posted.

2000-2001 BASKETBALL INTERPRETATIONS
SUPPLEMENT #1 (11/9/00)
SITUATION 1: A1 is an airborne shooter preparing to release the ball on a shot attempt. Instead of releasing the ball on the try, A1 fumbles the ball (while still in the air) and drops it. A1 then returns to the floor and secures possession of the ball. RULING: Traveling violation. While airborne the ball must be released for a try or pass. (4—43-3a; 94)

The NCAA has a different ruling.

A.R. 85. After ending a dribble, A1 leaves the playing court to attempt a
try for goal. While airborne, A1 fumbles the ball and:
(1) Recovers the fumble while airborne; or
(2) Recovers the fumble after returning to the floor. A1 dribbles
the ball. The official calls a violation. Is the official correct?
RULING: Yes. In (1) and (2) A1 is permitted to recover the ball
but after recovering the ball is not allowed to start another dribble.
However, if a fumble is touched by another player and then recovered
by A1, while airborne or after a return to the floor, A1 is allowed to
start another dribble. If A1 had not previously dribbled the ball, and
while airborne fumbled and recovered the ball (while airborne or after
a return to the floor), he/she is permitted to start a dribble.
(Rule 4-21.4.a, 4-31.2 and 9-7.1.c)

Personally, I think that the NCAA ruling is better. The loss of player control by a fumble is the same as when the airborne player gives up player control when releasing the ball on a try. Since a player can run and catch the ball when the try is an air-ball without violating, I see no reason why a player can't catch a fumble.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

1) 2000-2001 BASKETBALL INTERPRETATIONS
SUPPLEMENT #1 (11/9/00)
SITUATION 1: A1 is an airborne shooter preparing to release the ball on a shot attempt. Instead of releasing the ball on the try, A1 fumbles the ball (while still in the air) and drops it. A1 then returns to the floor and secures possession of the ball. RULING: Traveling violation. While airborne the ball must be released for a try or pass. (4—43-3a; 94)

2)The NCAA has a different ruling.
A.R. 85.
However, if a fumble is touched by another player and then recovered by A1, while airborne or after a return to the floor, A1 is allowed to
start another dribble.

1) Completely irrelevant as this play doesn't involve the loose ball being touched by another player during the fumble before player control was regained by A1. Apples and watermelons.

2) Hmmmmmm......

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

I have been slogging (Now I know how other people feel when they read my erudite postings, NOT! ) through JR and NevadaRef's posts and I am suprised that neither of them have given a ruling; they both should become politicians, . Anyway, I am going to toss my hat into the ring.

Let us look at this play, step-by-step:

1) A1 jumps into the air for a field goal attempt, therefore, A1 is now in the act-of-shooting. The act-of-shooting ends when A1 releases the ball for the try. When A1 releases the ball for the try, player control and team control ceases to exist for A1 and Team A respectively.

Note #1: Both NFHS and NCAA Rules define player control as a player holding or dribbling a live ball in bounds.

2) A2 made contact with the ball and knocks the ball completely out of A1's hands.

Question #2a: Did A2's actions cause A1 to lose player control of the ball?

Question #2b: If A2's actions did cause A1 to lose player control of the ball, can A1 recover the ball and start a dribble?

I think that we are getting hung up on the word fumble and I do not think that it is relevant to this discussion because another player touched the ball in a manner that caused A1 to lose player control.

I will go on the record stating that I am sure the play looked weird, but, I will also say that A1 can recover the ball and start a new dribble.

Note to BillyMac: See no maybe, maybe not, .

MTD, Sr.

[Juulie Downs]

Seems pretty clear to me. A2 causes player control to end. Now A1 gets a new player control. No violation, regardless of what the hypothetical violation might be called.

[Juulie Downs]

Originally Posted by shishstripes

I say violation. Don't have a casebook in front of me but I think about during an interrupted dribble (which I know is completely different) if it goes off a teammate that doesn't allow me to start a new dribble and defender didn't keep me from finishing a shot.

If the ball goes off a teammate, you ARE allowed to start a new dribble. Who says you're not?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Note to BillyMac: No maybe, maybe not.

I'm glad that you finally got off the fence.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I'm glad that you finally got off the fence.

It was all those rocks that people were throwing at me that made me fall off.

MTD, Sr.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Juulie Downs

If the ball goes off a teammate, you ARE allowed to start a new dribble. Who says you're not?

Is this relevent?

Interrupted dribble situation

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Is this relevent?

Interrupted dribble situation

Billy:

Good catch. It is most relevant. The posts that you and Camron support what Juulie and I have been postulating.

MTD, Sr.


P.S. For all of us Jayhawk fans, they looked real good at home this afternoon.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1) Completely irrelevant as this play doesn't involve the loose ball being touched by another player during the fumble before player control was regained by A1. Apples and watermelons.

2) Hmmmmmm......

Reading the thread again today, I now see your point. It was late last night and I must have been tired. I misread the OP. I failed to comprehend that the ball was knocked loose by a teammate, A2. I read that as A1 and thus thought that the player smacked the ball off his own shoulder and lost control. Hence, the play rulings that I previously posted.

For the record the play in the OP is legal and A1 may recover the ball and dribble again.