Travel violation???

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

It's going on 2am, I've had a couple drinks, and I'm not busting out the rules or case book before I go to bed.

A1 jumps with 2 hands on ball to lay ball in basket. While A1 is in the air on the way up A2's shoulder hits the ball causing A1 to momentarily lose ball (both hands come completely off ball). While still in the air A1 regains complete control of ball but comes back to earth with the ball.


What say you?

We discussed this play a while ago. Jurassic said that it was a traveling violation for failing to release the ball on a pass or try after going airborne.
His case was supported by an old NFHS ruling that Bob Jenkins posted.

2000-2001 BASKETBALL INTERPRETATIONS
SUPPLEMENT #1 (11/9/00)
SITUATION 1: A1 is an airborne shooter preparing to release the ball on a shot attempt. Instead of releasing the ball on the try, A1 fumbles the ball (while still in the air) and drops it. A1 then returns to the floor and secures possession of the ball. RULING: Traveling violation. While airborne the ball must be released for a try or pass. (4—43-3a; 94)

The NCAA has a different ruling.

A.R. 85. After ending a dribble, A1 leaves the playing court to attempt a
try for goal. While airborne, A1 fumbles the ball and:
(1) Recovers the fumble while airborne; or
(2) Recovers the fumble after returning to the floor. A1 dribbles
the ball. The official calls a violation. Is the official correct?
RULING: Yes. In (1) and (2) A1 is permitted to recover the ball
but after recovering the ball is not allowed to start another dribble.
However, if a fumble is touched by another player and then recovered
by A1, while airborne or after a return to the floor, A1 is allowed to
start another dribble. If A1 had not previously dribbled the ball, and
while airborne fumbled and recovered the ball (while airborne or after
a return to the floor), he/she is permitted to start a dribble.
(Rule 4-21.4.a, 4-31.2 and 9-7.1.c)

Personally, I think that the NCAA ruling is better. The loss of player control by a fumble is the same as when the airborne player gives up player control when releasing the ball on a try. Since a player can run and catch the ball when the try is an air-ball without violating, I see no reason why a player can't catch a fumble.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

1) 2000-2001 BASKETBALL INTERPRETATIONS
SUPPLEMENT #1 (11/9/00)
SITUATION 1: A1 is an airborne shooter preparing to release the ball on a shot attempt. Instead of releasing the ball on the try, A1 fumbles the ball (while still in the air) and drops it. A1 then returns to the floor and secures possession of the ball. RULING: Traveling violation. While airborne the ball must be released for a try or pass. (4—43-3a; 94)

2)The NCAA has a different ruling.
A.R. 85.
However, if a fumble is touched by another player and then recovered by A1, while airborne or after a return to the floor, A1 is allowed to
start another dribble.

1) Completely irrelevant as this play doesn't involve the loose ball being touched by another player during the fumble before player control was regained by A1. Apples and watermelons.

2) Hmmmmmm......

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

I have been slogging (Now I know how other people feel when they read my erudite postings, NOT! ) through JR and NevadaRef's posts and I am suprised that neither of them have given a ruling; they both should become politicians, . Anyway, I am going to toss my hat into the ring.

Let us look at this play, step-by-step:

1) A1 jumps into the air for a field goal attempt, therefore, A1 is now in the act-of-shooting. The act-of-shooting ends when A1 releases the ball for the try. When A1 releases the ball for the try, player control and team control ceases to exist for A1 and Team A respectively.

Note #1: Both NFHS and NCAA Rules define player control as a player holding or dribbling a live ball in bounds.

2) A2 made contact with the ball and knocks the ball completely out of A1's hands.

Question #2a: Did A2's actions cause A1 to lose player control of the ball?

Question #2b: If A2's actions did cause A1 to lose player control of the ball, can A1 recover the ball and start a dribble?

I think that we are getting hung up on the word fumble and I do not think that it is relevant to this discussion because another player touched the ball in a manner that caused A1 to lose player control.

I will go on the record stating that I am sure the play looked weird, but, I will also say that A1 can recover the ball and start a new dribble.

Note to BillyMac: See no maybe, maybe not, .

MTD, Sr.

[Juulie Downs]

Seems pretty clear to me. A2 causes player control to end. Now A1 gets a new player control. No violation, regardless of what the hypothetical violation might be called.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Note to BillyMac: No maybe, maybe not.

I'm glad that you finally got off the fence.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I'm glad that you finally got off the fence.

It was all those rocks that people were throwing at me that made me fall off.

MTD, Sr.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1) Completely irrelevant as this play doesn't involve the loose ball being touched by another player during the fumble before player control was regained by A1. Apples and watermelons.

2) Hmmmmmm......

Reading the thread again today, I now see your point. It was late last night and I must have been tired. I misread the OP. I failed to comprehend that the ball was knocked loose by a teammate, A2. I read that as A1 and thus thought that the player smacked the ball off his own shoulder and lost control. Hence, the play rulings that I previously posted.

For the record the play in the OP is legal and A1 may recover the ball and dribble again.

[Spence]

Let me make sure I'm following because I had a similar play with one change. In my play it was B1 that knocked the ball loose from A1. A1 while still in the air regained control of the ball and THEN landed.

No violation since player control was lost?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Spence

Let me make sure I'm following because I had a similar play with one change. In my play it was B1 that knocked the ball loose from A1. A1 while still in the air regained control of the ball and THEN landed.

No violation since player control was lost?

Correct. I had this exact play. A1 goes up for a shot. B1 knocks it loose. A1 grabs it while she's still in the air and lands with it. I call nothing and the fans are kind enough to inform me that I missed something.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

We discussed this play a while ago. Jurassic said that it was a traveling violation for failing to release the ball on a pass or try after going airborne.
His case was supported by an old NFHS ruling that Bob Jenkins posted.

2000-2001 BASKETBALL INTERPRETATIONS
SUPPLEMENT #1 (11/9/00)
SITUATION 1: A1 is an airborne shooter preparing to release the ball on a shot attempt. Instead of releasing the ball on the try, A1 fumbles the ball (while still in the air) and drops it. A1 then returns to the floor and secures possession of the ball. RULING: Traveling violation. While airborne the ball must be released for a try or pass. (4—43-3a; 94)

The NCAA has a different ruling.

A.R. 85. After ending a dribble, A1 leaves the playing court to attempt a
try for goal. While airborne, A1 fumbles the ball and:
(1) Recovers the fumble while airborne; or
(2) Recovers the fumble after returning to the floor. A1 dribbles the ball. The official calls a violation. Is the official correct?
RULING: Yes. In (1) and (2) A1 is permitted to recover the ball but after recovering the ball is not allowed to start another dribble. However, if a fumble is touched by another player and then recovered by A1, while airborne or after a return to the floor, A1 is allowed to start another dribble. If A1 had not previously dribbled the ball, and while airborne fumbled and recovered the ball (while airborne or after a return to the floor), he/she is permitted to start a dribble.
(Rule 4-21.4.a, 4-31.2 and 9-7.1.c)

Had this play last night. And this time it happened with 2.1 seconds left in a tie game. I called a travel. My partners and I (plus another official in attendance) had a long discussion about it after the game.

A1 went up to shoot a floating 3-pointer, lost the ball while in the air, returned to the ground and caught the ball.

(BTW, the reason I asked the question in the OP was because I had a play Friday night where A1 went back up with an offensive rebound, lost the ball while in the air, caught the ball while in the air, and then landed. After I called a travel A2 protested that he had caused the ball to come loose with his shoulder.)

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Had this play last night. And this time it happened with 2.1 seconds left in a tie game. I called a travel. My partners and I (plus another official in attendance) had a long discussion about it after the game.

A1 went up to shoot a floating 3-pointer, lost the ball while in the air, returned to the ground and caught the ball.

(BTW, the reason I asked the question in the OP was because I had a play Friday night where A1 went back up with an offensive rebound, lost the ball while in the air, caught the ball while in the air, and then landed. After I called a travel A2 protested that he had caused the ball to come loose with his shoulder.)

It appears that the NFHS position on this play may now match that of the NCAA and that the 2000-01 Interp has been overturned. However, this ruling never got published for all to see.

Posted by ChuckElias on May 5, 2008: "The blue text is my explanation of exactly what we were trying to clarify, and the red text is Mary Struckoff's ruling, as related by my friend on the committee.
...

PLAY: A1 jumps to attempt a try for goal. While airborne, the ball slips from A1's hands and travels straight up. A1 catches the ball and returns to the floor. Official rules this was a fumble and player control was lost, so there is no traveling violation. Is the official correct? (Is this a loss of player control, allowing a recovery of the fumble, or is it traveling?) Yes."

http://forum.officiating.com/showpos...3&postcount=68

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

It appears that the NFHS position on this play may now match that of the NCAA and that the 2000-01 Interp has been overturned. However, this ruling never got published for all to see.

Posted by ChuckElias on May 5, 2008: "The blue text is my explanation of exactly what we were trying to clarify, and the red text is Mary Struckoff's ruling, as related by my friend on the committee.
...

PLAY: A1 jumps to attempt a try for goal. While airborne, the ball slips from A1's hands and travels straight up. A1 catches the ball and returns to the floor. Official rules this was a fumble and player control was lost, so there is no traveling violation. Is the official correct? (Is this a loss of player control, allowing a recovery of the fumble, or is it traveling?) Yes."

http://forum.officiating.com/showpos...3&postcount=68

Wow!!! So Ms Struckoff has changed the interp but nothing has been officially published? That's not good. Do posts in this forum count as definitive information (especially those from esteemed members)?

I had emailed my colleagues the interp you provided. Guess I need to write them back and tell them I may be wrong. I have no problem with that but I sure would like to have a definitive rules citation to say one way or the other.

[Nevadaref]

Sorry, my man. That's all the help that I can provide on this one at the moment.
NV does have a current member on the NFHS rules committee. I'll see if I can go through him to get something put out in print on this play for next season.

Personally, I consider this play to be legal and don't penalize it whenever I see it.