Sub after made basket late in game

[Coach Bill]

NFHS Varsity game. Team A is making a furious rally and is out of timeouts when they score to go down 3 with about 8 seconds left. The ball bounds slightly away and Team B is making minimal effort (walking slowly) to go after it. The ref blows the whistle to stop the clock (good call in my opinion). Team B makes a sub. I wasn't close enough to the action to hear what was said, but the refs sent the sub back and brought back the other guy that was in.

Without being there, could anyone speculate what the reason could be for this?

[jdw3018]

Not knowing the rules?

[Adam]

College refs working the high school game?

[Coach Bill]

Sub entering didn't have his shirt tucked in?

Sub entering had blood somewhere?

My guess was that he had to have been at the table at the time the ref stopped the clock. But, that's not the case?

[Adam]

Not the case. They need to be there before we're ready to put the ball in play.

[Vinski]

Why did the ref blow the whistle and why was it a good call? If the ball was reasonably accessible, the ref should have just started the chop.

Originally Posted by Vinski

Why did the ref blow the whistle and why was it a good call? If the ball was reasonably accessible, the ref should have just started the chop.

I agree...I don't see any reason for the official to stop the clock. If team B takes 5 seconds, that leaves 3 for Team A to attempt a 3-pointer at the end. I don't find a rules justification for the officials' actions here.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Ref Ump Welsch

I agree...I don't see any reason for the official to stop the clock. If team B takes 5 seconds, that leaves 3 for Team A to attempt a 3-pointer at the end. I don't find a rules justification for the officials' actions here.

How do you get 3 seconds left. If the basket is made with 8 seconds left and team B knows the rules and are in no rush, then the ball isnt necessecerily at B's displosal right away. This could very well be the end of the game. Team B has no obligation to speed up how they play (within reason disclaimer of course) simply because team A is down.

from a made basket to a 5 second violation could very well take 10 seconds in some instances. For the most part it will fall in the 7-8 second variety.

[TonyT]

Originally Posted by Coach Bill

NFHS Varsity game. Team A is making a furious rally and is out of timeouts when they score to go down 3 with about 8 seconds left. The ball bounds slightly away and Team B is making minimal effort (walking slowly) to go after it. The ref blows the whistle to stop the clock (good call in my opinion). Team B makes a sub. I wasn't close enough to the action to hear what was said, but the refs sent the sub back and brought back the other guy that was in.

Without being there, could anyone speculate what the reason could be for this?

The only way a sub could come into the game was if Team B called a time out. They have 5 seconds to in bound the ball it was smart in not being in a hurry. I don't think the ref should of stopped the clock IMO.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by TonyT

The only way a sub could come into the game was if Team B called a time out. They have 5 seconds to in bound the ball it was smart in not being in a hurry. I don't think the ref should of stopped the clock IMO.

#1, if the clock is stopped and the sub reports, you have to let him in. B does not have to use a timeout to get him in.

#2, if the ball is at the thrower's disposal and they're making no attempt to pick it up, you start the 5 second count. Otherwise, they could allow the entire 8 seconds, 10 seconds or 60 seconds to expire without picking it up.

[Coach Bill]

Originally Posted by Vinski

Why did the ref blow the whistle and why was it a good call? If the ball was reasonably accessible, the ref should have just started the chop.

The ball being "reasonably accessible" I assume is a judgement call. There was no wall and stands behind basket so somehow the ball got knocked about 15-20 feet away behind the basket. Is that "reasonably accessible"? Probably depends on who you ask.

If it was a middle of the game scenario, unless team B ran after the ball and ran back with it, I think the ref would have stopped the clock. So, I think it's a good call at this point in the game, too.

I know if I was team B and I was actually attempting to inbound it, I don't think it would be fair for the count to already be on three, by the time I got the ball and returned to the baseline to inbound.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by Coach Bill

The ball being "reasonably accessible" I assume is a judgement call. There was no wall and stands behind basket so somehow the ball got knocked about 15-20 feet away behind the basket. Is that "reasonably accessible"? Probably depends on who you ask.

If it was a middle of the game scenario, unless team B ran after the ball and ran back with it, I think the ref would have stopped the clock. So, I think it's a good call at this point in the game, too.

I know if I was team B and I was actually attempting to inbound it, I don't think it would be fair for the count to already be on three, by the time I got the ball and returned to the baseline to inbound.

This is a HTBT type of situation. If the ball had bounded far away from the court, the official can and should stop the clock. Once he does that, he is obligated to allow the substitution. If the ball has not bounded away by a good distance, the official should start the count when the inbounder gets to the ball. If the inbounder is taking a drunken-sailor path to the ball, I will likely stop the clock in this situation since I cannot reasonably start a count since the ball is not at his disposal (let's say the ball is 10 feet from him and he takes a 30 foot path to the ball).

I will allow the offense some leeway here in getting to the ball. On the other hand, taking an extra five to seven seconds to get to the ball is not something that is fair to the opponent or to the game.

Of course, this is yet one more reason why it is sooooooo important to keep your time outs near the end of the game. If team B has a time out left, they will undoubtedly use it here leaving themselves with a full eight seconds to make something good happen.

[slow whistle]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

This is a HTBT type of situation. If the ball had bounded far away from the court, the official can and should stop the clock. Once he does that, he is obligated to allow the substitution. If the ball has not bounded away by a good distance, the official should start the count when the inbounder gets to the ball. If the inbounder is taking a drunken-sailor path to the ball, I will likely stop the clock in this situation since I cannot reasonably start a count since the ball is not at his disposal (let's say the ball is 10 feet from him and he takes a 30 foot path to the ball).

I will allow the offense some leeway here in getting to the ball. On the other hand, taking an extra five to seven seconds to get to the ball is not something that is fair to the opponent or to the game.

Of course, this is yet one more reason why it is sooooooo important to keep your time outs near the end of the game. If team B has a time out left, they will undoubtedly use it here leaving themselves with a full eight seconds to make something good happen.

This really comes down to what your definition of "at disposal" means doesn't it? "At disposal" is defined as being "available after a goal". If a ball is ten feet from a player and I judge it is reasonable that it should take 3 seconds for him to cover 10 feet and he is taking 7 seconds, can't I judge that even though he doesn't have the ball,it is still available to him after 3 seconds? I'm thinking that rather than stopping the clock (unless it bounced far away - another judgement), I would give a reasonable time to get to the ball and then start the count....I actually love the idea of stopping the clock b/c you are punishing a team that is not playing within the spirit of the rules, but by the letter of the rule I feel more comfortable just starting my count....

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

If the ball has not bounded away by a good distance, the official should start the count when the inbounder gets to the ball. If the inbounder is taking a drunken-sailor path to the ball, I will likely stop the clock in this situation since I cannot reasonably start a count since the ball is not at his disposal (let's say the ball is 10 feet from him and he takes a 30 foot path to the ball).

This is an incorrect way to view 'at the player's disposal.' The team gets a reasonable amount of time to get to the ball.

In your scenario, if the ball is 10 feet away, the player gets "10 feet" of time to get to the ball. If he takes a 30 foot path, the 5-second count begins after he's gone 10 feet, even though he's not at the ball.

Just because a player hasn't grabbed the ball doesn't mean it's not at his disposal.

[BillyMac]

Girls varsity game a few nights ago. After a breakaway made field goal by B1, the ball rolls toward the foul line, and stops there. A1, by herself in her new backcourt, picks up the ball walks, not runs, but not walking very slowly to delay either, down the lane toward the boundary line to make a throwin. I'm the new trail, and this "makes me go hummm?". When is the ball at her disposal?

1) When she picks it up at the foul line, which means that I'm starting my five second count, and may get to one second, or so, before she's even out of bounds, while I'm ignoring a timeout request from Team B head coach?

2) When she gets out of bounds with the ball, at which point I'm starting my five second count, but if Team B head coach had requested a time out during the time A1 had the ball in bounds, I would have granted it, which would have appeared awkward?

No problem in the game. She just got out of bounds and made the throwin right away, with no time out requests, but it was, like I said, one of "things that make you go hummm?".