What is the purpose of the Black Boxes NCAA Officials wear during games?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

No. But the clock is not stopped at the speed of light, either. The belt device can't do it's thing until it receives a signal, a signal which travels at the speed of sound from the whistle to the device. From there, a radio frequency signal stops the clock. That signal travels much faster than the speed of sound.

Edit: the radio frequency signal to stop the clock doesn't work at c, because by definition c is measured in a vacuum. Since we have the atmosphere to contend with, the speed at which the belt device stops the clock is < c.

I actually find this discussion interesting. The limiting factor in the whole process is whatever transmission is the slowest. We know that the whistle is making a sound wave in the air that is picked up by the microphone. There is then a relay of that detection to the belt box. That relay could be by fiberoptic or simple electronic. I don't know. Finally, the seller states that the box sends a radio wave signal to the control console. That is clearly done at below the speed of light. So I am saying that his claim that the clock is stopped at the speed of light is clearly false.
PS Lastly, the control console must receive the radio signal and then transmit something to the device that stops the clock.

Perhaps one of our esteemed members knows something about radio waves and how they are generated and can tell us at what speed they travel. I think that they are sound waves and thus cannot travel faster than the speed of sound.

[eyezen]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Perhaps one of our esteemed members knows something about radio waves and how they are generated and can tell us at what speed they travel. I think that they are sound waves and thus cannot travel faster than the speed of sound.

Put simply radio waves and light waves are both forms electromagnetic radiation that differ only in frequency. They both travel at "the speed of light" which Juggles correctly stated is less than "c" in an atmosphere.

Now frequency becomes important when the waves travels through a medium (again in simple terms a radio wave will slow down going through a wall but a light wave is completely stopped) but in this scenario is unimportant.

Sound waves are a different animal, they are compressions of the air around us and when those differences hit our eardrums we "hear" those differences. Hence why sound doesn't propagate in space.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by eyezen

Put simply radio waves and light waves are both forms electromagnetic radiation that differ only in frequency. They both travel at "the speed of light" which Juggles correctly stated is less than "c" in an atmosphere.

Now frequency becomes important when the waves travels through a medium (again in simple terms a radio wave will slow down going through a wall but a light wave is completely stopped) but in this scenario is unimportant.

Sound waves are a different animal, they are compressions of the air around us and when those differences hit our eardrums we "hear" those differences. Hence why sound doesn't propagate in space.

Thanks. That is the kind of physics knowledge that I am seeking. I was wondering if radio waves were electro-magnetic. That makes much more sense than them being a physical product of the atmosphere such as the noise made by a passing car.

Now what is the speed of radio waves in a vacuum? Is it c or something less? Do electro-magnetic waves travel at different speeds or all at the same speed regardless of frequency?

I guess that I need to do some research on light waves as well. I never grasped that they were simply electro-magnetic radiation. I always thought that light was a physical substance that existed and traveled in wave form. I never did understand exactly what constituted a wave particle. I know that I had an excellent college physics class (taught by the Dean of Yale's physics department), but I must not have fully comprehended what was being taught regarding this.

[Freddy]

Whereas I'd bet we'll all be magically stopping the clock with our whistles, even on the high school level, sooner rather than later, I can see a just as great a benefit being able to have the clock started by an official at precisely the proper time.
Seems there are just as many unfortunate instances of the timer not starting the clock properly as vice versa.
Do you think that will be coming down the pike someday? Will we have to add "little black boxes" to our Christmas list, right below "air needle" and "keeps-the-shirt-from-coming-out-of-your-pants rubber belt with knobbies all over"?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Freddy

Whereas I'd bet we'll all be magically stopping the clock with our whistles, even on the high school level, sooner rather than later, I can see a just as great a benefit being able to have the clock started by an official at precisely the proper time.
Seems there are just as many unfortunate instances of the timer not starting the clock properly as vice versa.
Do you think that will be coming down the pike someday? Will we have to add "little black boxes" to our Christmas list, right below "air needle" and "keeps-the-shirt-from-coming-out-of-your-pants rubber belt with knobbies all over"?

Well the problem is that these devices are very expensive. And with the financial trouble out country is in or the many school districts across the country, I do not think we will ever see this as a mainstay across the country in the coming years. Colleges make millions, they can afford thousands of dollars for a device that will decide who will make more millions.

Peace

[refguy]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Well the problem is that these devices are very expensive. And with the financial trouble out country is in or the many school districts across the country, I do not think we will ever see this as a mainstay across the country in the coming years. Colleges make millions, they can afford thousands of dollars for a device that will decide who will make more millions.

Peace

The system costs about a grand and the batteries cost about $200 a season. The guy makes all his money on the batteries every year. (His batteries are specialized for the system.)

[BktBallRef]

Unless Mike has drastically reduced the price, it's closer to $2500. The batteries are a huge issue. Each set lasts about two games before needing replacement. The batteries are available from other vendors at lower prices but you agree to buy them from PTS. I know of two schools that got tired of the expense and sent it back.

[observer]

As an observer, I am somewhat not real happy with the devices.
Or possibly "rules" should be made up to utilize the boxes.
I see too many (almost all) D1 officials reach for the magic button
on the belt devices to start the clock...Even the official that administers
the throw-in...Thus, one of his/her hands is used to hand the ball to
the thrower, the other hand is on the devise...No hands left to start
or chop the clock. Not every official on the floor needs to start
the clock on every position.

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by observer

Thus, one of his/her hands is used to hand the ball to
the thrower, the other hand is on the devise...No hands left to start
or chop the clock.

Why would the official signal for someone else to start the clock when he could push a button and start it himself?

[observer]

That's my point, all three officials at the same time
reach for the magic button to start the clock. Wonder
how they all know when to start on the touch in bounds
when the ball is not thrown into their primary area?

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by observer

As an observer, I am somewhat not real happy with the devices.
Or possibly "rules" should be made up to utilize the boxes.
I see too many (almost all) D1 officials reach for the magic button
on the belt devices to start the clock...Even the official that administers
the throw-in...Thus, one of his/her hands is used to hand the ball to
the thrower, the other hand is on the devise...No hands left to start
or chop the clock. Not every official on the floor needs to start
the clock on every position.

That's not the mechanic, nor is it an issue.

Let's say the thrower is tol my left. I place my right hand on the button and administer the ball with the left hand and immediately bigen the count. When the ball is released, I stop counting and raise the left hand to chop the clock. When the ball is legally touched, I press the button and chop. It's that simple.

The pother officials pressing the button is just a backup as is the timer doing the same thing at the table. Neither of the other two is a primary starter. It's just to insure that the clock starts. If you're on the floor and you don't know the ball has been legally touched, you need to pay better attention to what's going on.

[dbking]

Originally Posted by observer

As an observer, I am somewhat not real happy with the devices.
Or possibly "rules" should be made up to utilize the boxes.
I see too many (almost all) D1 officials reach for the magic button
on the belt devices to start the clock...Even the official that administers
the throw-in...Thus, one of his/her hands is used to hand the ball to
the thrower, the other hand is on the devise...No hands left to start
or chop the clock. Not every official on the floor needs to start
the clock on every position.

That is why the mechanic on throw in is different in NCAA, NAIA and NJCAA. You only use one hand to count with and chop. It takes a few throw ins to get used to and then you really like.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by eyezen

Hence why sound doesn't propagate in space.

You must be wrong. I can hear those spaceships blowup in every one of those Star Wars, and Star Trek, movies.

[mbyron]

Don't get too excited about the gap between the speed of light in the atmosphere and the speed of light in vacuum (which has 3 syllables, BTW). The former is 99.97% of the latter, which is certainly close enough for government work.

The speed of an electronic signal through wire is also at least 96% of c, which again is close enough, where c is about 671 million mph.

The slowest signal in the PTS system is the transmission of sound from the whistle to the microphone, which moves at a measley 760 mph (though the speed of sound varies somewhat depending on altitude, barimetric pressure, etc.).

For comparison, the speed of nerve impulses in a human timekeeper is no more than 100-200 mph, or about 3 million times slower than c.

[JugglingReferee]

If one were to aggregate the time delays in an NBA game due to the PT system stopping the clock, it wouldn't surprise me if the value was much much less than the resolution of the display, and certainly much much less than what the human eye can perceive in terms of legally released on a try/tap for goal.