Name changed in book at halftime

[ranjo]

Just had a fellow official give me a call for my take on the following situation that occured in his game last night. I stumbled a little in my interp and told him I would present it to you folks.

Upon returning from halftime, the crew is informed that the visitors made a change in the book. They did not change a number. They changed a name.

It seems that the name by the number was not even a player who was on the team. R decided it was a administrative T and started the game with home shooting two.

Under 3-2-a thru e, I could find no direct reference to the above situation. However, in 3-2-1, the rule book states that each team shall supply the official scorer the name and number of each player.

All of the casebook plays I read have to do with changing a number.

Since we as officials identify all of the players by number and not by name, is this really a technical foul?

[deecee]

nope no T -- how do you then deal with those games where the book only has numbers and no names?

[ranjo]

Originally Posted by deecee

nope no T -- how do you then deal with those games where the book only has numbers and no names?

3-2-1 states that official scorer must be presented with names and numbers of each team member.

[BillyMac]

NFHS 10-1:

ART. 1: Fail to supply the scorer with the name and number of each team member who may participate and designate the five starting players at least 10 minutes before the scheduled starting time.
PENALTY: (Art. 1) One foul for both requirements. Penalized when it occurs.

ART. 2: After the 10-minute time limit specified in Article 1:
a. Change a designated starter unless necessitated as in 3-2-2a.
b. Add a name to the team member list.
c. Require the scorer to change a team member’s or player’s number in the scorebook.
d. Require a player to change to the number in the scorebook.
e. Have identical numbers on team members and/or players.
PENALTY: (Art. 2) One foul only per team regardless of the number of infractions. (Art. 2a) Penalized if discovered before ball becomes live to start game. (Arts. 2b, c, d) Penalized when they occur. (Art. 2e) Penalized when discovered.

10-1-2-c states that it is a technical foul to change a number in the scorebook after the 10-minute time limit specified in Article 1. 10-1-2-b states that it is a technical foul to add a name after the 10-minute time limit specified in Article 1. So what if #20 is originally listed as John Doe, and #21 is originally listed as James Doe, but at halftime, it is discovered that these names and numbers have been mixed up? The names are already there, so names have not really been added to the scorebook. However once you erase one of the names, then, technically, another name must be added.

However, some may conclude that 10-1-1, which deals with both names and numbers, may carry over after the game has started. But 10-1-2 deals with before the scheduled starting time, which may indicate that it doesn't carry over once the game begins.

Great question ranjo. Let the debate begin.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by deecee

nope no T -- how do you then deal with those games where the book only has numbers and no names?

You tell them to supply the names as well.

[deecee]

easier said then done for lower level games sometimes -- the effort is not worth the hassle.

[Mark Padgett]

I really don't understand why we need their names. We call everything by number. As far as I'm concerned, all the kids could each be named "Hey You" and it wouldn't make a darn bit of difference. In fact, I don't care if the kids even have names.

[eyezen]

As long as the same physical person is wearing the same jersey number from the 1st half to the second, play on.

[referee99]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

I really don't understand why we need their names. We call everything by number. As far as I'm concerned, all the kids could each be named "Hey You" and it wouldn't make a darn bit of difference. In fact, I don't care if the kids even have names.

did some 6th grade cyo games today.... one team had a player, who when each subsequent player got the ball he would clearly call out/repeat that name, I guess calling for the ball. "Jim, Jim, Jim", "Joe, Joe, Joe", "Bill, Bill, Bill" etc. Wait a minute, the only name I never heard was the caller. Oh well, I guess I don't know all the names on that team after all.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

I really don't understand why we need their names. We call everything by number. As far as I'm concerned, all the kids could each be named "Hey You" and it wouldn't make a darn bit of difference. In fact, I don't care if the kids even have names.

You put a name to a number because otherwise, they could switch jerseys and you couldn't prove they didn't.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

I really don't understand why we need their names. We call everything by number. As far as I'm concerned, all the kids could each be named "Hey You" and it wouldn't make a darn bit of difference. In fact, I don't care if the kids even have names.

Why do they need names? So the opponents know who is starting. Otherwise a team could scramble their numbers every game and keep their warmups on until they step out for the jump...basically defeating the purpose of providing lineups and starters 10 minutes before the game.


And, yes, this is a T. They basically added a new name to the book per 10-1-2b. And applied a number that was listed for someone else...perhaps violating 10-1-2e....but that doesn't really matter since there is only one T applied for all elements of Article 2.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

You tell them to supply the names as well.

Originally Posted by deecee

easier said then done for lower level games sometimes -- the effort is not worth the hassle.

What hassle?

"Coach, I see numbers, but to avoid the T, we need to have names as well. I'll give you an extra minute to do that."

At lower levels (which is really the only place this would be an issue), we usually don't hit them at the 10 minute mark anyway.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by ranjo

Upon returning from halftime, the crew is informed that the visitors made a change in the book. They did not change a number. They changed a name.

When was the name changed? Was it changed during halftime or was it changed during the first half and they weren't told about it until halftime?

[ranjo]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

When was the name changed? Was it changed during halftime or was it changed during the first half and they weren't told about it until halftime?

It was changed during halftime.

[Istillgotit23]

I was the R in this situation. There has to be some accountability for the error in the book @ this level of basketball (BV). For the record, the home team missed both freethrows... so it wasn't a determining factor in the outcome of the game.