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-   -   Name changed in book at halftime (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/50845-name-changed-book-halftime.html)

ranjo Sat Jan 10, 2009 03:25pm

Name changed in book at halftime
 
Just had a fellow official give me a call for my take on the following situation that occured in his game last night. I stumbled a little in my interp and told him I would present it to you folks.

Upon returning from halftime, the crew is informed that the visitors made a change in the book. They did not change a number. They changed a name.

It seems that the name by the number was not even a player who was on the team. R decided it was a administrative T and started the game with home shooting two.

Under 3-2-a thru e, I could find no direct reference to the above situation. However, in 3-2-1, the rule book states that each team shall supply the official scorer the name and number of each player.

All of the casebook plays I read have to do with changing a number.

Since we as officials identify all of the players by number and not by name, is this really a technical foul?

deecee Sat Jan 10, 2009 03:26pm

nope no T -- how do you then deal with those games where the book only has numbers and no names?

ranjo Sat Jan 10, 2009 03:33pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by deecee (Post 567114)
nope no T -- how do you then deal with those games where the book only has numbers and no names?


3-2-1 states that official scorer must be presented with names and numbers of each team member.

BktBallRef Sat Jan 10, 2009 03:47pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ranjo (Post 567113)
Upon returning from halftime, the crew is informed that the visitors made a change in the book. They did not change a number. They changed a name.

When was the name changed? Was it changed during halftime or was it changed during the first half and they weren't told about it until halftime?

BillyMac Sat Jan 10, 2009 03:57pm

I'll Just Sit Back And Watch For Now ...
 
NFHS 10-1:

ART. 1: Fail to supply the scorer with the name and number of each team member who may participate and designate the five starting players at least 10 minutes before the scheduled starting time.
PENALTY: (Art. 1) One foul for both requirements. Penalized when it occurs.

ART. 2: After the 10-minute time limit specified in Article 1:
a. Change a designated starter unless necessitated as in 3-2-2a.
b. Add a name to the team member list.
c. Require the scorer to change a team member’s or player’s number in the scorebook.
d. Require a player to change to the number in the scorebook.
e. Have identical numbers on team members and/or players.
PENALTY: (Art. 2) One foul only per team regardless of the number of infractions. (Art. 2a) Penalized if discovered before ball becomes live to start game. (Arts. 2b, c, d) Penalized when they occur. (Art. 2e) Penalized when discovered.

10-1-2-c states that it is a technical foul to change a number in the scorebook after the 10-minute time limit specified in Article 1. 10-1-2-b states that it is a technical foul to add a name after the 10-minute time limit specified in Article 1. So what if #20 is originally listed as John Doe, and #21 is originally listed as James Doe, but at halftime, it is discovered that these names and numbers have been mixed up? The names are already there, so names have not really been added to the scorebook. However once you erase one of the names, then, technically, another name must be added.

However, some may conclude that 10-1-1, which deals with both names and numbers, may carry over after the game has started. But 10-1-2 deals with before the scheduled starting time, which may indicate that it doesn't carry over once the game begins.

Great question ranjo. Let the debate begin.

Adam Sat Jan 10, 2009 05:58pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by deecee (Post 567114)
nope no T -- how do you then deal with those games where the book only has numbers and no names?

You tell them to supply the names as well.

deecee Sat Jan 10, 2009 07:49pm

easier said then done for lower level games sometimes -- the effort is not worth the hassle.

Mark Padgett Sat Jan 10, 2009 08:06pm

I really don't understand why we need their names. We call everything by number. As far as I'm concerned, all the kids could each be named "Hey You" and it wouldn't make a darn bit of difference. In fact, I don't care if the kids even have names.

eyezen Sat Jan 10, 2009 08:08pm

As long as the same physical person is wearing the same jersey number from the 1st half to the second, play on.

referee99 Sat Jan 10, 2009 08:09pm

I know one team's names...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett (Post 567172)
I really don't understand why we need their names. We call everything by number. As far as I'm concerned, all the kids could each be named "Hey You" and it wouldn't make a darn bit of difference. In fact, I don't care if the kids even have names.

did some 6th grade cyo games today.... one team had a player, who when each subsequent player got the ball he would clearly call out/repeat that name, I guess calling for the ball. "Jim, Jim, Jim", "Joe, Joe, Joe", "Bill, Bill, Bill" etc. Wait a minute, the only name I never heard was the caller. Oh well, I guess I don't know all the names on that team after all.:D

BktBallRef Sat Jan 10, 2009 10:14pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett (Post 567172)
I really don't understand why we need their names. We call everything by number. As far as I'm concerned, all the kids could each be named "Hey You" and it wouldn't make a darn bit of difference. In fact, I don't care if the kids even have names.

You put a name to a number because otherwise, they could switch jerseys and you couldn't prove they didn't.

ranjo Sat Jan 10, 2009 10:36pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BktBallRef (Post 567119)
When was the name changed? Was it changed during halftime or was it changed during the first half and they weren't told about it until halftime?


It was changed during halftime.

Istillgotit23 Sat Jan 10, 2009 10:41pm

I was the R in this situation. There has to be some accountability for the error in the book @ this level of basketball (BV). For the record, the home team missed both freethrows... so it wasn't a determining factor in the outcome of the game.

ranjo Sat Jan 10, 2009 10:53pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Istillgotit23 (Post 567214)
I was the R in this situation. There has to be some accountability for the error in the book @ this level of basketball (BV). For the record, the home team missed both freethrows... so it wasn't a determining factor in the outcome of the game.

Hey Home Boy - Welcome to the forum!:D

Nevadaref Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:11pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by deecee (Post 567114)
nope no T -- how do you then deal with those games where the book only has numbers and no names?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 567145)
You tell them to supply the names as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by deecee (Post 567167)
easier said then done for lower level games sometimes -- the effort is not worth the hassle.

If you don't care enough to make the effort to do it right, then please stop officiating. :mad:


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