Simultaneous charge and block

[GaOfficial]

Just found this forum - great stuff.
I am a 2nd year offical... was a spectator at a BV game yesterday - 3 man crew.

Lead calls charge.. C calls block. after conference they reported double foul to table, alternating posession.

Is this correct?

[beachbum]

I'm not sure how a double foul could be called. Either the defenceive player was set or he wasn't. Looks like a missed call

[deecee]

they were right -- this is the dreaded blarge. there are ways it can be avoided, and they involve a pregame on the topic as well good crew communication and teamwork.

but the crew was right. The only thing is on a double foul it goes to POI unless the ball was loose.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by deecee

This is the dreaded blarge. There are ways it can be avoided, and they involve a pregame on the topic as well good crew communication and teamwork.

And it can get really complicated if the ball goes in:

4.19.8 SITUATION C: A1 drives for a try and jumps and releases the ball. Contact occurs between A1 and B1 after the release and before airborne shooter A1 returns one foot to the floor. One official calls a blocking foul on B1 and the other official calls a charging foul on A1. The try is successful. RULING: Even though airborne shooter A1 committed a charging foul, it is not a player-control foul because the two fouls result in a double personal foul. The double foul does not cause the ball to become dead on the try and the goal is scored. Play is resumed at the point of interruption, which is a throw-in for Team B from anywhere along the end line. (4-36)

And BktBallRef has recently given us some good advice on how do avoid the dreaded blarge:

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

If there's a double whistle, I raise my hand and you raise your fist, we come together and discuss. If there's a double whistle, I don't raise my hand and you raise your fist, we come together and discuss.

GaOfficial: Welcome to the jungle, I mean, the Forum.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by deecee

The only thing is on a double foul it goes to POI unless the ball was loose.

This is wrong two ways. First of all, you always go POI. Sometimes, POI means using the arrow, and sometimes it doesn't.

Second, just because the ball is "loose" does not mean you go to the arrow. Team control does not end on a loose ball, therefore the offensive team would keep the ball. If, however, a shot had been attempted prior to contact, you would use the arrow since there was no team control (unless the basket is made, in which case you would count the basket and give the ball to the defense for and endline throwin.).

[eyezen]

Originally Posted by beachbum

I'm not sure how a double foul could be called. Either the defensive player was set or he wasn't. Looks like a missed call

Besides being wrong about reporting a double foul, what does being "set" have to do with it either?

GA - welcome. Just remember not everything you read on the interwebs is true.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by eyezen

Besides being wrong about reporting a double foul, what does being set have to do with it either?

Ding ding ding ding! Thanks eyezen.

Not only does a player not have to be set to draw a charge, he never has to have been "set."

[asdf]

It happend to Burr a few weeks back.

He was the Lead and sold a block, the Center sold a charge.

They went with the Blarge.....

Most of the guys 'round here subcribe to the "yield to the primary" on the double whistle.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by asdf

It happend to Burr a few weeks back.

He was the Lead and sold a block, the Center sold a charge.

They went with the Blarge.....

Most of the guys 'round here subcribe to the "yield to the primary" on the double whistle.

As long as the yielding takes place before the selling, it's still by the book. If not, hope it's what your assigners and state want.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

And it can get really complicated if the ball goes in:

4.19.8 SITUATION C: A1 drives for a try and jumps and releases the ball.
Contact occurs between A1 and B1 after the release and before airborne shooter A1 returns one foot to the floor. One official calls a blocking foul on B1 and the other official calls a charging foul on A1. The try is successful. RULING: Even though airborne shooter A1 committed a charging foul, it is not a player-control foul because the two fouls result in a double personal foul. The double foul does not cause the ball to become dead on the try and the goal is scored. Play is resumed at the point of interruption, which is a throw-in for Team B from anywhere along the end line. (4-36)

And BktBallRef has recently given us some good advice on how do avoid the dreaded blarge:

Actually, I believe the quote from BktBallRef refers to when one official has a violation and the other has a foul. The majority of the board here says that when the officials in the above case play give conflicting preliminary foul signals they are obligated to report both. A few of us disagree. A preliminary signal is not binding in any other situation, why should it be here?

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by just another ref

A preliminary signal is not binding in any other situation, why should it be here?

Because the case play says so.

[asdf]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

As long as the yielding takes place before the selling, it's still by the book. If not, hope it's what your assigners and state want.

Yield, in the sense of withholding your block or charge signal. The primary then goes with what he/she has and we move on.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by asdf

"Yield to the primary" on the double whistle.

Double whistles often occur in the dual coverage areas. In my little corner of Connecticut, when a double whistle occurs in a dual coverage area, we usually yield to the official that the play is moving toward, which is usually the lead.

[BillyMac]

From my pregame:
On double whistles, let’s both hold our preliminary signal and not give a block or player control signal. Make eye contact with each other. Give the call to whoever has the primary coverage, most often the lead official, unless you definitely have something different that happened first, in which case we’ll talk about it.

From Most Misunderstood Rules list:
A defensive player does not have to remain stationary to take a charge. A defender may turn away or duck to absorb contact, provided he or she has already established legal guarding position, which is both feet on the playing court and facing the opponent. The defender can always move backwards or sideways to maintain a legal guarding position and may even have one or both feet off the playing court when contact occurs. That player may legally rise vertically. If the defender is moving forward, then the contact is caused by the defender, which is a blocking foul.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by asdf

Yield, in the sense of withholding your block or charge signal. The primary then goes with what he/she has and we move on.

I figured as much, just wanted to clarify.