calling it but dealing with the annoyances afterwards

[mutantducky]

I haven't been a ref long and I've been told about how stay away from calling three seconds unless there is an advantage or the player is just camping out there. Palming is another and I give warnings especially when there isn't a defender nearby. I do call it after warnings and whenever it creates an advantage. You can ignore some 3 seconds here and there if they are not egregious but palming is one to be careful on because you don't want to be so strict on it especially at the Frosh and JV level but if you do call some there is a thin line in what to call and what to ignore. The thing that really annoys me is bam, hardly hear anything about these two calls from the fans and coaches but once you call them they start shouting for it and expecting it everytime.
last game, Coach said" when that player moved across the lane he was in the key for three seconds" I just rolled my eyes because the ball wasn't even near him and he was moving the whole time. Or worse fans yelling for three seconds when the ball isn't in the frontcourt; at least coaches haven't done that...yet. I try to stay consistent and ignore the fans and coaches off course.


anyways time to have some fun doing whatever- so Happy New Year

[amusedofficial]

How some officials can ignore three second violations because they claim there is no advantage/disadvantage when the ball is still on the perimiter is something I have never understood.

Maybe someone can convince me otherwise, but anytime a big post player can set up shop in his or her own lane and not have to move after three seconds, it IS an inherent advantage, no matter where the ball is.

one-thousand-one, one-thousand-two, one-thousand-three. TWEET!

[mutantducky]

I might call it there especially if they are waiting for a pass. But when the player is setting screens, moving around then yeah I was told to be more relaxed about that.

[DonInKansas]

Originally Posted by mutantducky

I haven't been a ref long and I've been told about how stay away from calling three seconds unless there is an advantage or the player is just camping out there. Palming is another and I give warnings especially when there isn't a defender nearby. I do call it after warnings and whenever it creates an advantage. You can ignore some 3 seconds here and there if they are not egregious but palming is one to be careful on because you don't want to be so strict on it especially at the Frosh and JV level but if you do call some there is a thin line in what to call and what to ignore. The thing that really annoys me is bam, hardly hear anything about these two calls from the fans and coaches but once you call them they start shouting for it and expecting it everytime.
last game, Coach said" when that player moved across the lane he was in the key for three seconds" I just rolled my eyes because the ball wasn't even near him and he was moving the whole time. Or worse fans yelling for three seconds when the ball isn't in the frontcourt; at least coaches haven't done that...yet. I try to stay consistent and ignore the fans and coaches off course.


anyways time to have some fun doing whatever- so Happy New Year

Fans/coaches are going to gripe regardless. Make the kids play the game by the rules. They're high schoolers, not 3rd graders.

[BillyMac]

The Intent and Purpose of the Rules (below), Advantage/Disadvantage, and the Tower Philosophy, all impact the application of the rules of basketball. Many members of the Forum believe that the above mentioned guidelines only pertain to the calling of fouls, i.e., incidental contact. Many of those members who subscribe to that theory may, if they are approached on the right day, at the right time, while they are in the right frame of mind, "stretch" those guidelines to include, at the most, three violations, two of which are mentioned above, three seconds, palming/carrying, and the one that wasn't mentioned, which is the one most often cited as requiring an understanding of advantage/disadvantage, etc., the ten second free throw time limit. To try to include other violations under the application of these guidelines is only going to invite the wrath of many Forum members, so don't even try to go there. And don't even think about applying advantage/disadvantage to any violation involving a boundary line.

THE INTENT AND PURPOSE OF THE RULES
The restrictions which the rules place upon the players are intended to create a balance of play; to provide equal opportunity between the offense and the defense; to provide equal opportunity between the small player and tall player; to provide reasonable safety and protection; to create an atmosphere of sporting behavior and fair play; and to emphasize cleverness and skill without unduly limiting freedom of action of individual or team play on either offense or defense. Therefore, it is important to know the intent and purpose of a rule so that it may be intelligently applied in each play situation. A player or a team should not be permitted an advantage which is not intended by a rule. Neither should play be permitted to develop which may lead to placing a player at a disadvantage not intended by a rule.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by amusedofficial

one-thousand-one, one-thousand-two, one-thousand-three. TWEET!

More like:

"One-thousand, two-thousand" they get out of the lane.

Or "One-thousand" they get out of the lane.

Sorry, but what fans are yelling is not when the count starts. I have had coaches call for 3 seconds and the player was not in the lane.

If you do not understand that, then not sure anyone can tell you anything.

I guess we should call high dribbling a violation too.

Peace

[mutantducky]

I tend to call palming more than other refs but the good thing about it is usually it can stop players from doing another. On the advantage thing, I have called palming when a defender isn't even nearby so no I don't always go by the advantage because yeah that is asking for trouble. There might be a few cases which I let go though and I've told players in breaks after to watch that or I i will call it.
Sometimes when working with refs who don't call it can be trouble. we switch the trail spots I will call it just a minute after the player was doing the exact same thing when the other ref was at the trail. Fortunately, many times I've had coaches tell players yeah that was palming but then of course they will get on you for not calling what they see as violations. - just about every crossover or hesitation dribbles.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

I have not called a three-second violation in forty years and I have only been officiating for 38 years, .

But, seriously, I have found that I have called fewer 3-second violations in the last eighteen years or so because of how the game is now played than during the first twenty years that I have been officiating. I think that in today's motion offenses, a player who stands in the paint is a negative to his team's offense rather that a plus.

One should remember that the Tower Philosophy applies to contact foul situations and not violations BUT know when and when not to call a 3-second violations is a judgement that comes from experience. I really do not have a problem with young officials calling a 3-second violation strictly by the rules, because it is a learning experience. I know that when I was a young whippersnapper in the peach basket era, I was known to call my share of 3-second violations.

MTD, Sr.

[shishstripes]

I once discussed this same philosophy with a veteran official and their response was this:

"A violation should not be considered on an advantage/disadvantage basis. By ignoring the violation because the defense was not put at an disadvantage is taking a possession away from the defensive team putting them at a disadvantage."

Working at a tournament last year I told a player to move out of the key twice, still didn't budge, tweet, "I told you twice to move out of the key." Coach told the kid, "Even I heard him, listen to the refs while they are still talking to you."

[Adam]

Originally Posted by shishstripes

I once discussed this same philosophy with a veteran official and their response was this:

"A violation should not be considered on an advantage/disadvantage basis. By ignoring the violation because the defense was not put at an disadvantage is taking a possession away from the defensive team putting them at a disadvantage."

Working at a tournament last year I told a player to move out of the key twice, still didn't budge, tweet, "I told you twice to move out of the key." Coach told the kid, "Even I heard him, listen to the refs while they are still talking to you."

I haven't heard a high school coach ask for a three second call in two or three years. I just remembered the last one I called. Either early last season or the season before.

This season, I haven't even had to say much to the players; maybe three times all season. "Get out of the lane." I don't use a color or number, as it's obvious to the players who needs to get out of the lane.

[LeeBallanfant]

Originally Posted by shishstripes

I once discussed this same philosophy with a veteran official and their response was this:

"A violation should not be considered on an advantage/disadvantage basis. By ignoring the violation because the defense was not put at an disadvantage is taking a possession away from the defensive team putting them at a disadvantage."

Exactly my sentiments. If you start using advantage/disadavantage for violations, you logically end up ignoring a player who dribbles out of bounds in the backcourt without any pressure, because no disadvantage in that.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by LeeBallanfant

Exactly my sentiments. If you start using advantage/disadavantage for violations, you logically end up ignoring a player who dribbles out of bounds in the backcourt without any pressure, because no disadvantage in that.

Here's the deal with three seconds. If you call it strictly by the book every time someone so much as has a toe on the line, the only people you will make happy are the fans. You won't please the coaches, you won't please your assigner, and you won't be happy with your schedule of games.

At upper levels, it is expected to call it a little differently than "by the book."

[Ignats75]

Originally Posted by LeeBallanfant

Exactly my sentiments. If you start using advantage/disadavantage for violations, you logically end up ignoring a player who dribbles out of bounds in the backcourt without any pressure, because no disadvantage in that.

I hope you can use sufficient judgement to tell the difference between the OP and your example.

I have called exactly one 3 second violation this year. Its usually not even an issue< as Mark D said. With today's motion offenses, it just doesn't come into play as much as it used to.

[beachbum]

I always give one warning.. "get out of the lane 34". But if the player is moving across and takes alittle more than the 3 seconds, i ignore it. Camping is my key component.

I called it last week on a player that remained in the lane to set for a rebound. The more advanced high scholl teams run set offences so it is easy to tell what the players will do. The play wasn't around him, so there was no ADV/DVG,, but his ultimate goal was to have an advantage. I heard his coach yell at him to get out of the lane in approval of my call.
Usually by the time I realize I should be counting, it's been a second or two anyways. so they are getting a little break. it's suprising that coaches and fans believe that we just sit under the basket looking for 3 second violations.

AND with the 5 or 10 second count, I try to move my arm a little slower than a second per movement.

[Ignats75]

AND with the 5 or 10 second count, I try to move my arm a little slower than a second per movement.

Now this one I really do not like. The rules require 5 seconds (not 6 1/2) for an inbounds. It requires 10 seconds (not 13) to advance the ball into the front court. Why would you punish the defense by making it harder for them to force a turnover? We are supposed to be impartial. That is showing favoritism to the offense!!!!!

I guess I was one of those nasty in your face defenders when I was younger. I appreciate hustling defense. Thats why I try to calibrate my visible count when I am coming up court by synchronizing my arm to the clock. Thats why I try to never miss a closely guarded count.