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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 26, 2008, 05:32pm
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when to reverse AP arrow

FOULS
after a held ball on the ensuing throw-in if either team fouls and and both teams in bonus the arrow would not change correct?

if team throwing in fouls and no bonus the defense team gets ball for throw in and no change of arrow correct?

if defense team fouls, no bonus, offense keeps throw-in, does the arrow change after throw-in completes??

Violations
offense team throwing in violates(stepping over line, offense team kicks ball, thrown OOB) does ap arrow change??????

defense team violates, offense keeps throw in after throw-in completes does arrow change???? would the second throw-in be the AP throw-in???
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 26, 2008, 05:40pm
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Take a look at 4-3 & 6-3 for a better understanding of these situations.
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Old Fri Dec 26, 2008, 06:43pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jevaque View Post
FOULS
The short answer is that a foul never causes the arrow to switch.

Quote:
Violations
The AP arrow changes when the throw-in ends or when the throw-in team commits a throw-in violation. So if the defensive team violates DURING the AP throw-in, the arrow does not change. If the throw-in team commits a throw-in violation, the arrow changes. If the throw-in team commits a different type of violation (like swinging elbows), the arrow doesn't change.
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Old Fri Dec 26, 2008, 09:03pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1 View Post

The AP arrow changes when the throw-in ends or when the throw-in team commits a throw-in violation. If the throw-in team commits a throw-in violation, the arrow changes. If the throw-in team commits a different type of violation (like swinging elbows), the arrow doesn't change.
Where is this specified? 6-4-5: The opportunity to make an alternating-possession throw-in is lost if the throw-in team violates.
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 26, 2008, 09:32pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
Where is this specified? 6-4-5: The opportunity to make an alternating-possession throw-in is lost if the throw-in team violates.
They had their opportunity, they got the ball and screwed it up.
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Old Fri Dec 26, 2008, 09:44pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1 View Post
If the throw-in team commits a different type of violation (like swinging elbows), the arrow doesn't change.
Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
Where is this specified? 6-4-5: The opportunity to make an alternating-possession throw-in is lost if the throw-in team violates.
I believe this is the concern.
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Old Fri Dec 26, 2008, 10:10pm
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Originally Posted by Ch1town View Post
I believe this is the concern.
You believe what is the concern? I was asking where it is specified that the throw-in teams loses the arrow on a violation only if it is a throw-in violation?
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Old Fri Dec 26, 2008, 10:21pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1 View Post
If the throw-in team commits a different type of violation (like swinging elbows), the arrow doesn't change.
The short answer is...that's incorrect.
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 26, 2008, 11:26pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1 View Post
If the throw-in team commits a different type of violation (like swinging elbows), the arrow doesn't change.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
The short answer is...that's incorrect.
I'm trying to figure a scenario were/how that could be called during a throw-in?
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Old Sat Dec 27, 2008, 08:56am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
Where is this specified? 6-4-5: The opportunity to make an alternating-possession throw-in is lost if the throw-in team violates.
I was looking at 6-4-4. It says the arrow is reversed when the throw-in ends as specified in 4-42-5.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
The short answer is...that's incorrect.
4-42-5c. But that's contradicted by 6-4-5. Hmmmm.
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Old Sat Dec 27, 2008, 12:07pm
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Originally Posted by Scrapper1 View Post
I was looking at 6-4-4. It says the arrow is reversed when the throw-in ends as specified in 4-42-5.


4-42-5c. But that's contradicted by 6-4-5. Hmmmm.
4-42-5 tells when a throw-in ends. 6-4-5 tells that the AP opportunity is lost even if the throw-in did not end.
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Old Sat Dec 27, 2008, 12:29pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1 View Post
I was looking at 6-4-4. It says the arrow is reversed when the throw-in ends as specified in 4-42-5.


4-42-5c. But that's contradicted by 6-4-5. Hmmmm.

I must say that you NOW have a decent point. I was going by what I knew from the past, however, I've just gone and checked the 2007-08 rules book and compared it to the 2008-09 version and found that 6-4-5 was altered as well as the announced editorial change to 4-42-5. The words "throw-in violation" in 4-42-5 are brand new.

It appears that someone at the NFHS is enjoying messing with the rules language and not telling anyone. There is no shading or highlighting of any kind for either 6-4-5 or 4-42-5, nor a listing in the rules or editorial changes listing in the front for 6-4-5, only 4-42-5 is shown as an editorial change.

I would seriously doubt that this editorial change was intended to change the existing rule. Afterall, it was only an editorial change, but the NFHS has changed rules in this manner before. We all recall the LGP decision about having one foot OOB from 4-23.

I think that we need to get MTD to start an email campaign about this. These unannounced changes are unacceptable and make proper enforcement difficult for officials.

For example, handling this situation by what is written in the 2008-09 rules book seems to be different from the 2007-08 version. When push comes to shove, I would have to go with the specified "throw-in violation" language and not change the arrow. That seems strange and to run counter to the intent of the rule. So did the NFHS really desire a rule change here? Officiating minds want to know!

My personal opinion is that all violations during the throw-in by the throwing team should count, since all violations during the throw-in by the non-throwing team count and are penalized by a new throw-in and retention of the arrow, if applicable.
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Old Sat Dec 27, 2008, 03:15pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
These unannounced changes are unacceptable and make proper enforcement difficult for officials.
Amen.
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Old Sat Dec 27, 2008, 04:53pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
I must say that you NOW have a decent point.
Come on, gimme a little more credit than that. I had a decent point all along. You just didn't see the specific wording of 4-42-5c until I pointed it out.

Quote:
I was going by what I knew from the past, however, I've just gone and checked the 2007-08 rules book and compared it to the 2008-09 version and found that 6-4-5 was altered as well as the announced editorial change to 4-42-5. The words "throw-in violation" in 4-42-5 are brand new.
Honestly, I didn't realize this was a recent change. If I hadn't looked it up, I would've answered the same way you did. But for some reason, I decided to find the precise citation.

Quote:
I would seriously doubt that this editorial change was intended to change the existing rule. Afterall, it was only an editorial change
I would agree. But the law of unintended consequences kicks in here. . .

Quote:
These unannounced changes are unacceptable and make proper enforcement difficult for officials.
I would agree with this also. Too many unannounced changes, and "editorial" changes that actually alter the rule.
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Old Sun Dec 28, 2008, 10:14am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
My personal opinion is that all violations during the throw-in by the throwing team should count, since all violations during the throw-in by the non-throwing team count and are penalized by a new throw-in and retention of the arrow, if applicable.
Mine too. Seems to be the spirit of the rule, contrary to the new change in the letter.
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