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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 23, 2008, 12:24am
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Good T/Or Time Out?

The other night I was officiating a boys varsity game, late in the game with about a minute left I had a foul on the visiting team (at this point the it was a 6 point game) The foul was on a successful layup, it was a no doubter. As I went to the table to report the foul I look over and the visiting coach is barking instructions to his players from the court, and when I say court I mean he is standing 8-10 feet on the court. Earlier in the game he was a foot out of the box talking to his players and we mentioned it to him that he needed to stay in his box. When I saw him that far on the court my instincts took over and I gave him a T. After the fact the only other thing I thought maybe I could have done was given him a timeout, but should I? What would you guys have done.
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Old Tue Dec 23, 2008, 12:34am
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That's a long way to be out on the court. I'd probably have a T here as well.

The coaching box has been a POE in a couple of the past few years.
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Old Tue Dec 23, 2008, 12:34am
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On what basis would you give him a time out?

If he's not given you any trouble all game, and he's just coaching his kids, I'd think about a second reminder. If he jumps back into his box, problem solved. If he doesn't, then the T is just that much more justified.

OTOH, if he's been a jerk, the hard part would be not smiling while you whack him.
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Old Tue Dec 23, 2008, 12:39am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle View Post
On what basis would you give him a time out?
You know, like in kindergarten.
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Old Tue Dec 23, 2008, 12:45am
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Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
You know, like in kindergarten.
Now you've done it. I can't stop giggling.
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Old Tue Dec 23, 2008, 12:46am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle View Post
If he's not given you any trouble all game, and he's just coaching his kids,...


Why is it so difficult for people to enforce this rule?

2005-06 POINTS OF EMPHASIS
1. Sporting Behavior.
...
D. Coaching box: The committee wants coaches to stay in the coaching box. There is a constant problem when coaches wander. It is a distinct advantage to the coach who is permitted to be out of the box because the coach has a better chance to communicate with his/her team. The coach can also influence play by being out on the court.
The rule is black-and-white, but it has not been dealt with properly. Most officials have not enforced the rule. The fact that the coach is not directing comments to the officials or is "coaching the team" has no bearing on rule enforcement. The coach who continually abuses the coaching-box rule risks having his or her governing body remove it completely. The official who doesn't enforce it runs the risk of not following what the governing body wants enforced.
Once the coaching box has been removed because of a technical foul, all related rules restrictions must apply. There's no way to get the box back after the privilege has been lost.
Assistant coaches must be seated at all times except during time-outs, to attend to an injured player after being beckoned and to spontaneously react to a play. The rules that permit a head coach to rise in certain situations (time-outs, confer with table personnel for a correctable error, dealing with disqualifications) do not apply to assistant coaches under any circumstances. Again, the fact that an assistant coach is "only coaching" has no bearing on the rule or enforcement.
Head coaches have the responsibility to remain in the box. School administrators must support that by demanding their coaches do so. When violated, the official must enforce the rule with a technical foul.
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Old Tue Dec 23, 2008, 12:56am
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In PA the coaching Box has only been in use for the past 3 seasons so we are still getting adjusted, although it isn't a rule per say, when we didn't have a coaches box the only reason coaches could stand were to call a time-out, I guess I was stretching it back to that and trying to be preventive in a close game. I did T him and I feel that I did the right thing I just wanted everyones opinion. Some of my colleagues said they would have given him a Time-Out. Just wanted others opinions. Had him a few days later (hate when I have the same school close together) He stayed in the box the whole night but all over one of my partners. He ended up getting T's up again in that game.
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Old Tue Dec 23, 2008, 01:31am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
Why is it so difficult for people to enforce this rule?
You are certainly welcome to T the coach for this in your game. And you certainly have clear rules backing.

Just like you do for calling three seconds.

I note this POE lists Coaching Box under Sporting Behavior. I see no sporting behavior issues in the OP. The POE mentions a coach influencing play by being out on the court. In the OP the ball is dead. The POE discusses coaches who continually abuse the coaching box. In the OP the coach has been out of the box twice in 31 minutes, once by only a foot.

Am I looking for justification for not calling a T here? Not really. Just pointing out that the OP is hardly the poster child for a must have T.
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Old Tue Dec 23, 2008, 02:32am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle View Post
Just pointing out that the OP is hardly the poster child for a must have T.
Obviously, I disagree or I wouldn't have posted what I did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PIAA REF View Post
... when I say court I mean he is standing 8-10 feet on the court.
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Old Tue Dec 23, 2008, 09:02am
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With all due respect to Nevadaref, I would take the course of action laid out by BITS.
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Old Tue Dec 23, 2008, 09:44am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post


Why is it so difficult for people to enforce this rule?

2005-06 POINTS OF EMPHASIS
1. Sporting Behavior.
...
D. Coaching box: The committee wants coaches to stay in the coaching box. There is a constant problem when coaches wander. It is a distinct advantage to the coach who is permitted to be out of the box because the coach has a better chance to communicate with his/her team. The coach can also influence play by being out on the court.
The rule is black-and-white, but it has not been dealt with properly. Most officials have not enforced the rule. The fact that the coach is not directing comments to the officials or is "coaching the team" has no bearing on rule enforcement. The coach who continually abuses the coaching-box rule risks having his or her governing body remove it completely. The official who doesn't enforce it runs the risk of not following what the governing body wants enforced.
Once the coaching box has been removed because of a technical foul, all related rules restrictions must apply. There's no way to get the box back after the privilege has been lost.
Assistant coaches must be seated at all times except during time-outs, to attend to an injured player after being beckoned and to spontaneously react to a play. The rules that permit a head coach to rise in certain situations (time-outs, confer with table personnel for a correctable error, dealing with disqualifications) do not apply to assistant coaches under any circumstances. Again, the fact that an assistant coach is "only coaching" has no bearing on the rule or enforcement.
Head coaches have the responsibility to remain in the box. School administrators must support that by demanding their coaches do so. When violated, the official must enforce the rule with a technical foul.
With all due respect: We officiate in the real world, not inside a book.

Last edited by bob jenkins; Tue Dec 23, 2008 at 10:58am.
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Old Tue Dec 23, 2008, 11:02am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
The fact that the coach is not directing comments to the officials or is "coaching the team" has no bearing on rule enforcement.
Nevada, I hope I don't get into a pissing match with you, but I do lean towards BITS on this one. First, the OP situation was during a dead ball, so I'm more willing to give a little leeway on this one, especially since the coach was not directing any comments towards the officials. Second, why would we give the coach any leeway or warning? There is nothing in the POE that gives us the opportunity to give the coach a warning or reminder, however, every rules interpreter I know, from HS up to college, recommends talking the coach back into the box first before eventually giving the T. I believe that the was procedure recommended in the NFHS pre-season newsletter that came out that same year. Why is that? Could it be because the intent of the rule is not to penalize "strictly" any accidental infringement, but to penalize obvious attempts to circumvent the box to gain an advantage?

Just curious as to how you handle the following, given your stance on the POE: Late in the game, A has a throw-in on their end of the floor. Before the ball is handed to A1 for the throw-in, B's coach is trying to get the official's attention to request a TO. The crowd is so loud, none of the officials hear the coach, so the coach tries to get closer to the closest official to get their attention. When the official finally hears the coach, the coach is well out of the box in front of the table. Is this a T? Why, or why not?
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Old Tue Dec 23, 2008, 11:06am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M&M Guy View Post
Just curious as to how you handle the following, given your stance on the POE: Late in the game, A has a throw-in on their end of the floor. Before the ball is handed to A1 for the throw-in, B's coach is trying to get the official's attention to request a TO. The crowd is so loud, none of the officials hear the coach, so the coach tries to get closer to the closest official to get their attention. When the official finally hears the coach, the coach is well out of the box in front of the table. Is this a T? Why, or why not?
Barney Fife would T him up.
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Old Tue Dec 23, 2008, 07:22pm
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Originally Posted by Indianaref View Post
Barney Fife would T him up.
Barney: The last big buy I made was my mom's and dad's anniversary present.
Andy: What did you get them?
Barney: A septic tank.
Andy: For their anniversary?
Barney: Yeah, oh they're really hard to buy for. Besides it was something they could use. They were really thrilled. Two tons of concrete, all steel reinforced.
Andy: You're a fine son, Barn.
Barney: I try.
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Old Tue Dec 23, 2008, 11:38am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M&M Guy View Post
Nevada, I hope I don't get into a pissing match with you, but I do lean towards BITS on this one.
You won't. I'll just state that you are yet another example of why this was a POE for two consecutive seasons. The NFHS flat-out says that officials aren't enforcing the rule.
Eight to ten feet out of the box is a blatant violation. It has to be penalized. The warning or reminder is for when a coach is a step or two out.
Look at the directive from the NCAA on this. They went so far as to institute a formal warning this year. Check out the requirements for the warning. If college coaches with their jobs and livelihoods on the line can stay in the boxes, then so can HS coaches, even when they are excited.


Quote:
Originally Posted by M&M Guy View Post
Just curious as to how you handle the following, given your stance on the POE: Late in the game, A has a throw-in on their end of the floor. Before the ball is handed to A1 for the throw-in, B's coach is trying to get the official's attention to request a TO. The crowd is so loud, none of the officials hear the coach, so the coach tries to get closer to the closest official to get their attention. When the official finally hears the coach, the coach is well out of the box in front of the table. Is this a T? Why, or why not?
Is the coach gaining an advantage for his team by being out of the box? Does he have more ability to get the attention of the officials for his time-out request? The NFHS has stated that is one of the main reasons not to let the coaches be out of the box.

Perhaps he should learn to communicate his desire to his players on the court and one of them can run over right next to an official and make the request.
There is also written language from the NFHS that coaches have to learn that their requests may not always be seen or heard and that it is their responsibility to communicate clearly and get the attention of the officials.
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