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Old Tue Dec 23, 2008, 12:24am
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Good T/Or Time Out?

The other night I was officiating a boys varsity game, late in the game with about a minute left I had a foul on the visiting team (at this point the it was a 6 point game) The foul was on a successful layup, it was a no doubter. As I went to the table to report the foul I look over and the visiting coach is barking instructions to his players from the court, and when I say court I mean he is standing 8-10 feet on the court. Earlier in the game he was a foot out of the box talking to his players and we mentioned it to him that he needed to stay in his box. When I saw him that far on the court my instincts took over and I gave him a T. After the fact the only other thing I thought maybe I could have done was given him a timeout, but should I? What would you guys have done.
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Old Tue Dec 23, 2008, 12:34am
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That's a long way to be out on the court. I'd probably have a T here as well.

The coaching box has been a POE in a couple of the past few years.
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Old Tue Dec 23, 2008, 12:34am
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On what basis would you give him a time out?

If he's not given you any trouble all game, and he's just coaching his kids, I'd think about a second reminder. If he jumps back into his box, problem solved. If he doesn't, then the T is just that much more justified.

OTOH, if he's been a jerk, the hard part would be not smiling while you whack him.
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Old Tue Dec 23, 2008, 12:39am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle View Post
On what basis would you give him a time out?
You know, like in kindergarten.
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Old Tue Dec 23, 2008, 12:45am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
You know, like in kindergarten.
Now you've done it. I can't stop giggling.
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Old Tue Dec 23, 2008, 12:46am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle View Post
If he's not given you any trouble all game, and he's just coaching his kids,...


Why is it so difficult for people to enforce this rule?

2005-06 POINTS OF EMPHASIS
1. Sporting Behavior.
...
D. Coaching box: The committee wants coaches to stay in the coaching box. There is a constant problem when coaches wander. It is a distinct advantage to the coach who is permitted to be out of the box because the coach has a better chance to communicate with his/her team. The coach can also influence play by being out on the court.
The rule is black-and-white, but it has not been dealt with properly. Most officials have not enforced the rule. The fact that the coach is not directing comments to the officials or is "coaching the team" has no bearing on rule enforcement. The coach who continually abuses the coaching-box rule risks having his or her governing body remove it completely. The official who doesn't enforce it runs the risk of not following what the governing body wants enforced.
Once the coaching box has been removed because of a technical foul, all related rules restrictions must apply. There's no way to get the box back after the privilege has been lost.
Assistant coaches must be seated at all times except during time-outs, to attend to an injured player after being beckoned and to spontaneously react to a play. The rules that permit a head coach to rise in certain situations (time-outs, confer with table personnel for a correctable error, dealing with disqualifications) do not apply to assistant coaches under any circumstances. Again, the fact that an assistant coach is "only coaching" has no bearing on the rule or enforcement.
Head coaches have the responsibility to remain in the box. School administrators must support that by demanding their coaches do so. When violated, the official must enforce the rule with a technical foul.
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Old Tue Dec 23, 2008, 12:56am
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In PA the coaching Box has only been in use for the past 3 seasons so we are still getting adjusted, although it isn't a rule per say, when we didn't have a coaches box the only reason coaches could stand were to call a time-out, I guess I was stretching it back to that and trying to be preventive in a close game. I did T him and I feel that I did the right thing I just wanted everyones opinion. Some of my colleagues said they would have given him a Time-Out. Just wanted others opinions. Had him a few days later (hate when I have the same school close together) He stayed in the box the whole night but all over one of my partners. He ended up getting T's up again in that game.
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Old Tue Dec 23, 2008, 01:31am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
Why is it so difficult for people to enforce this rule?
You are certainly welcome to T the coach for this in your game. And you certainly have clear rules backing.

Just like you do for calling three seconds.

I note this POE lists Coaching Box under Sporting Behavior. I see no sporting behavior issues in the OP. The POE mentions a coach influencing play by being out on the court. In the OP the ball is dead. The POE discusses coaches who continually abuse the coaching box. In the OP the coach has been out of the box twice in 31 minutes, once by only a foot.

Am I looking for justification for not calling a T here? Not really. Just pointing out that the OP is hardly the poster child for a must have T.
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Old Tue Dec 23, 2008, 02:32am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle View Post
Just pointing out that the OP is hardly the poster child for a must have T.
Obviously, I disagree or I wouldn't have posted what I did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PIAA REF View Post
... when I say court I mean he is standing 8-10 feet on the court.
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Old Tue Dec 23, 2008, 09:02am
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With all due respect to Nevadaref, I would take the course of action laid out by BITS.
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Old Tue Dec 23, 2008, 09:06am
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Originally Posted by Indianaref View Post
With all due respect to Nevadaref the NFHS, I would take the course of action laid out by BITS.
Fixed it for ya.

Last edited by Nevadaref; Tue Dec 23, 2008 at 02:26pm.
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Old Tue Dec 23, 2008, 09:14am
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I agree if he's been a jerk it is an easy call but if not, what is wrong with walking over to him and walking him back to the box as you remind him about the coaching box. I've seen it done and it works. Then further action is easy because he knows you're in control on the court.
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Old Tue Dec 23, 2008, 09:17am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indianaref View Post
With all due respect to Nevadaref, I would take the course of action laid out by BITS.
I agree. If the coach was being an a$$ most of the game, and since he'd been warned previously then I'd whack him. Or if he came onto the court to give you a piece of his mind over a call you just made, ditto. But if he's just coaching his kids (maybe since it's a close game the crowd is loud and it's tough to hear in the gym), then I remind him he needs to stay in the coaching box. If you T him here, then you pretty much have to call everything else by the book: 3 seconds, defender breaks the throw-in plane with a fingertip, etc...

You'd absolutely have just cause, but I think common sense has to come into play. You're penalizing his kids in a close game, for probably nothing more than a momentary slip of the mind that had no bearing on you or the game.
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Old Tue Dec 23, 2008, 09:44am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post


Why is it so difficult for people to enforce this rule?

2005-06 POINTS OF EMPHASIS
1. Sporting Behavior.
...
D. Coaching box: The committee wants coaches to stay in the coaching box. There is a constant problem when coaches wander. It is a distinct advantage to the coach who is permitted to be out of the box because the coach has a better chance to communicate with his/her team. The coach can also influence play by being out on the court.
The rule is black-and-white, but it has not been dealt with properly. Most officials have not enforced the rule. The fact that the coach is not directing comments to the officials or is "coaching the team" has no bearing on rule enforcement. The coach who continually abuses the coaching-box rule risks having his or her governing body remove it completely. The official who doesn't enforce it runs the risk of not following what the governing body wants enforced.
Once the coaching box has been removed because of a technical foul, all related rules restrictions must apply. There's no way to get the box back after the privilege has been lost.
Assistant coaches must be seated at all times except during time-outs, to attend to an injured player after being beckoned and to spontaneously react to a play. The rules that permit a head coach to rise in certain situations (time-outs, confer with table personnel for a correctable error, dealing with disqualifications) do not apply to assistant coaches under any circumstances. Again, the fact that an assistant coach is "only coaching" has no bearing on the rule or enforcement.
Head coaches have the responsibility to remain in the box. School administrators must support that by demanding their coaches do so. When violated, the official must enforce the rule with a technical foul.
With all due respect: We officiate in the real world, not inside a book.

Last edited by bob jenkins; Tue Dec 23, 2008 at 10:58am.
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Old Tue Dec 23, 2008, 10:18am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PIAA REF View Post
The other night I was officiating a boys varsity game, late in the game with about a minute left I had a foul on the visiting team (at this point the it was a 6 point game) The foul was on a successful layup, it was a no doubter. As I went to the table to report the foul I look over and the visiting coach is barking instructions to his players from the court, and when I say court I mean he is standing 8-10 feet on the court. Earlier in the game he was a foot out of the box talking to his players and we mentioned it to him that he needed to stay in his box. When I saw him that far on the court my instincts took over and I gave him a T. After the fact the only other thing I thought maybe I could have done was given him a timeout, but should I? What would you guys have done.
Game: Ontario Provincial Bronze Medal game back in 2003 I think it was.

I'm there watching with some buddies and late in the game, the covering official passes on calling this T when a coach is 8-10 feet out onto the court. He claimed that he didn't see the coach. Of course, had that been true, the official would have had to be blind. Everyone had their own opinion on the play: opposing team's fans were yelling for a T. Same team fans were yelling at the opposing team's fans to s.u. Other coach was not happy, iirc. Officials in the stands were stunned.

Years later, the official admitted that he didn't want to affect the game (4th quarter in the bronze medal game). He took quite a bit of ribbing for his decision, and ultimately, it has been pretty much agreed that you gotta call this T. One foot onto the court is ok. But 10 feet? Being nice most of the game doesn't earn a coach a free pass late in the game.

Good call. I've seen what happens when the call wasn't made.
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Last edited by JugglingReferee; Tue Dec 23, 2008 at 10:22am.
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