You make the call

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

There's no rule requirement for them to do so. You don't have rule backing to hold it against them later. They have done what the rule book said they needed to; you can't add extra responsibilities.

I merely suggested an alternative.

When it comes to issues that are not specifically covered in the rules, the R makes the final determination. Sometimes there is no rule backing.

A few years ago, someone went to a TV monitor to get a play right. Was it allowable by the rules? NO. Did they get the play right? YES. That is the job.

In regard to the topic at hand: It is their job to make sure the line up is correct, all that little statement did was remind them. If there is a problem with the line up, it is the coach that reaps the consequences. You do know that it is possible that the team make up is not the same game to game? It is called preventative officiating.

By your reasoning, if it is incorrect it is not on them because they did what they were supposed to.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

In regard to the topic at hand: It is their job to make sure the line up is correct, all that little statement did was remind them. If there is a problem with the line up, it is the coach that reaps the consequences. You do know that it is possible that the team make up is not the same game to game? It is called preventative officiating.

I don't mind the preventative officiating. That's not what's objectionable. What I object to is the idea that if you have the coach look at the official book and sign it that you can now call a team technical if he misses a scorer's transcription error. When you say, "It's on them if they choose not to," I take it you'd call the T here, when you have no rule to back that up.

You can't use 2-3, because the issue is addressed in the rules.

Originally Posted by icallfouls

By your reasoning, if it is incorrect it is not on them because they did what they were supposed to.

Exactly. If the team provides the lineup to the scorer, and the scorer either uses another source or makes a transcription error; it's not on the team/coach. Why are we looking for a reason to call a T here?

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

When it comes to issues that are not specifically covered in the rules, the R makes the final determination. Sometimes there is no rule backing.

The problem with this statement is that this is covered in the rules.

Originally Posted by icallfouls

A few years ago, someone went to a TV monitor to get a play right. Was it allowable by the rules? NO. Did they get the play right? YES. That is the job.

Video monitor review is forbidden in NFHS games. I have no idea when/where/how/why this happened, but it is definitely outside the rules, and that is NOT the job.

Originally Posted by icallfouls

In regard to the topic at hand: It is their job to make sure the line up is correct, all that little statement did was remind them.

It is not their job to make sure the lineup in the official book is correct. It is only their job to make sure the lineup they submit is correct.

This isn't a difficult issue at all. Why make it more complicated than it needs to be - especially when doing what you have suggested is beyond the scope of the rules.

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I don't mind the preventative officiating. That's not what's objectionable. What I object to is the idea that if you have the coach look at the official book and sign it that you can now call a team technical if he misses a scorer's transcription error. When you say, "It's on them if they choose not to," I take it you'd call the T here, when you have no rule to back that up.

You can't use 2-3, because the issue is addressed in the rules.



Exactly. If the team provides the lineup to the scorer, and the scorer either uses another source or makes a transcription error; it's not on the team/coach. Why are we looking for a reason to call a T here?

It looks like we are actually on the same page. The posted message referring to a local rule is something they use, and may be fine with their rules interpreter. If you want the "big" games in that association, then, "When in Rome...."

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

I hear the word "coach" being tossed around quite a bit during this discussion. Just for clarity sake:

I only say Coach because he is the one asking me to check the mistake in the original book. I am askig for his proof offer.

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

There is no requirement that the head coach specifically be the person to turn in the roster. The rule only states that the "team" is required to do it.

Agreed, and if I were going to do some preventative officiating and ask someone to check the book I'd find an assistant to do that.
However since we are not checking the book until 10 min NCAA & FED. you better ask before that or it is already too late to make changes without penalty so think about that very carefully, you could be inviting trouble.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

Agreed, and if I were going to do some preventative officiating and ask someone to check the book I'd find an assistant to do that.
However since we are not checking the book until 10 min NCAA & FED. you better ask before that or it is already too late to make changes without penalty so think about that very carefully, you could be inviting trouble.

Try this on for size, if the coach provides the correct lineup to the scorer, the scorer uses a different source and gets it wrong, then we need to make a change mid-game; you going to call the T?

[ma_ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Try this on for size, if the coach provides the correct lineup to the scorer, the scorer uses a different source and gets it wrong, then we need to make a change mid-game; you going to call the T?

Didn't you basically just summarize the OP? I think this is what we've been discussing the whole time...

[Adam]

Originally Posted by ma_ref

Didn't you basically just summarize the OP? I think this is what we've been discussing the whole time...

I see that now. I guess the follow up point is if you won't call this T (and I wouldn't), you can't call the T if the same scorer's error is corrected within 10:00 of game time.

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Try this on for size, if the coach provides the correct lineup to the scorer, the scorer uses a different source and gets it wrong, then we need to make a change mid-game; you going to call the T?

Saw this situation in a JUCO game a couple of years ago, a typed line up card was supplied -one number was mis copied in the book by scorer, the line up card was attached to the back page of the book with a calm explaination and a notation in the book as to exactly what happened, there was no issue.

the responsibility of the team ends once the line up is presented, any error at that point, is the responsibility of the table crew can you punnish the team for an error by the table crew?

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by cubsfanllw

our chapter has us take the official book to each hc at the 10 minute mark in pregame and have them check it and sign their page. if something like this occurred, it would be a "t".

What do you do if the team turns in the roster with 10:05 on the clock? Does the coach have to sign even though the scorer had no time to copy anything into the book?

[BillyMac]

Penalized when they occur, after ten minute time limit. The infraction occurs when the scorer is advised to add to or change the scorebook. The foul must be charged when it occurs and enforced when the ball next becomes live. Once the ball has become live, it is too late to penalize. A maximum of one technical foul per team regardless of the number of infractions for 2a, 3a, 3b, 3c, 4a:
a) A team shall not add a name to the team member list after the ten minute time limit. Team technical foul. When such a player legally enters the court, the player’s name, and number, must be entered into the scorebook.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by LDUB

What do you do if the team turns in the roster with 10:05 on the clock?

The rule says supply, not copy into the book. I'm not aware of any time limit regarding having the book(s) ready.

Penalized when it occurs, pregame, after ten minute time limit. A maximum of one technical foul for both requirements,1a, and 1b:
a) A team shall not fail to supply the scorer with the name, and number, of each team member who may participate at least ten minutes before the scheduled starting time. Team technical foul.
b) A team shall not fail to designate the five starting players at least ten minutes before the scheduled starting time. Team technical foul.

[Adam]

Okay, now I'm starting to have some issues with this, as it seems there is some discrepancy between the rules.
On the one hand, the coach only needs to supply the scorer by the 10:00 mark of pregame. On the other hand, any changes to the book after that point result in a technical foul. Artical 10-2 seems completely separate from 10-1, so....

I think it's easier to consider the typographical error to be a scorer's mistake, which can be corrected at any point until the final score is approved.

There, I feel better.